People seem to forget the season they just had under him. As I just said, they had 101 points and finished 8th overall, so I'm wondering....what are people basing their assessment that this ship is sinking on?

Yes I've outwardly questioned some things he's done, however, I know for a fact that it's an extremely difficult environment to just wholesale change everything out, for any manager, it's just not realistic.

There's absolutely zero foundation to say he's running the team into the ground, there is however, factual information (101 pts) that indicates he knows what he's doing...for the most part.
- LeftCoaster

You can certainly interpret the evidence that way, and I'm leaning in that direction as well, but you could also argue that the bounce back season had as much to do with the lack of Tortorella as anything that Benning did.


Edit: I reported myself to save you the trouble Marwood.

People seem to forget the season they just had under him. As I just said, they had 101 points and finished 8th overall, so I'm wondering....what are people basing their assessment that this ship is sinking on?

Yes I've outwardly questioned some things he's done, however, I know for a fact that it's an extremely difficult environment to just wholesale change everything out, for any manager, it's just not realistic.

There's absolutely zero foundation to say he's running the team into the ground, there is however, factual information (101 pts) that indicates he knows what he's doing...for the most part.
- LeftCoaster

If we can judge him on the success of one season, with a team that was for the most part successful because of players brought in from a previous regime, why do so many point to his negatives and say it is too soon to judge?

It's a hockey forum in the summer. We're all of us saying the same things over and over, Nucker's simply taken a pessimistic viewpoint. And not, as far as I can tell, because he's inherently pessimistic, but because that's how he views the team.

Personally, I'm willing to wait and see and hope for the best, but I'm not going to lie, I find the "Everything is Awesome" crowd just as tiring as the Benningadon one.
- CubanBuffet

I don't think there is one of those. I find the other side of the fence to be more of a wait and see crowd.

I personally truly feel that any GM that took over was going to be somewhat handcuffed by the owner, but that might just be my perception.

It's a hockey forum in the summer. We're all of us saying the same things over and over, Nucker's simply taken a pessimistic viewpoint. And not, as far as I can tell, because he's inherently pessimistic, but because that's how he views the team.

Personally, I'm willing to wait and see and hope for the best, but I'm not going to lie, I find the "Everything is Awesome" crowd just as tiring as the Benningadon one.
- CubanBuffet

personally, i think that nucker is just saying all this to keep the spotlight on himself. he's a diva who wants to be talked about.

i kid, i kid.

he's right and he's wrong. just like ALL of us.

it's the attitude that grinds my gears. but i'd rather have him here than have an echo chamber in this thread.

I don't think there is one of those. I find the other side of the fence to be more of a wait and see crowd.

I personally truly feel that any GM that took over was going to be somewhat handcuffed by the owner, but that might just be my perception.
- golfingsince

you live in ontario so you've been dumbed down through osmosis. your opinion does not matter any more.

He does whine everyday, but don't pretend like there is no basis for it. You yourself have admitted that you thought Benning has made poor decisions in asset management.
What is your definition between "real actual value" and "perception of value" ?

Are they not both perceived? Just one might be your opinion and the other is mine or whoever.

If I was to say Garrison got an underwhelming return in regards for the market value of a top 4 D in his prime, it is my perceived value that I am more than willing to back up with examples.

If you are going to say that is market value I would hope you can back that statement up.

Nucker gets flack, here and some of it rightly so but he absolutely defends his arguments.

Most of the pro-Benning crowd (not necessarily you because I know you disagree with some of his moves) defend his moves with one or a combination of.

He was forced to make a bad trade, because of Gillis,Player X, etc.
Salary cap doesn't matter when you are rebuilding
Getting fair value doesn't matter when you are rebuilding.
NTC's


As far as Benning goes (or stays), he will be here until ownership is no longer happy with the on ice product. I really doubt Aquaman had a plan to only have him here for a short while to rebuild. He will wait and see how the product is and judge him based upon his own definition of success.
- belcherbd

Real value is what someone's willing to give, not what's been given in the past, or what we think it should be, different managers around the league hold different values for each and every player. Is there a ballpark value, sure you could say that, but it's not a uniform thing.

Look at what Tim Murray paid for Robin Lehner, the man had ties to him, he drafted him, he paid a first round pick for him (probably because he had several) when no one else in the league probably would have. That doesn't mean every backup is now worth a first, it means that's what Murray was willing to pay for his team.

Each trade, Garrison for instance, has a unique set of circumstances to it. Garrison was traded for a second round pick, he was traded because the team's manager and veteran core determined they needed a veteran goaltender more than they needed a 3/4/5/6 defenseman making over 4 million a year.

Benning needs five years to see how things pan out, to date he's had one very successful season, that can't be argued. I hope he has several more, whether that means drafting and developing, or points wise, or entertainment wise, whatever, I just hope he's successful because I want the team to be successful.

you live in ontario so you've been dumbed down through osmosis. your opinion does not matter any more.
- RealityChecker

sad but true.

You can certainly interpret the evidence that way, and I'm leaning in that direction as well, but you could also argue that the bounce back season had as much to do with the lack of Tortorella as anything that Benning did.


Edit: I reported myself to save you the trouble Marwood.
- CubanBuffet

What else can we go by? Some of the things he did last year were successful, some of them weren't. But it's hard to argue with results. Although as you said, some of it can be attributed to a new work environment.

I know it's not the popular opinion, but I think bringing in Ryan Miller was an excellent move that gave the team confidence, and IMO it showed!! I also think acquiring Dorsett was a good move. I also thinking forcing Willie to keep Horvat was an excellent move.

Moving forward I think getting a highly skilled Baertschi for a second was a good move, and getting Linden Vey was good in that he's young and added depth and he's got a very good chance of getting better....these are moves that are yet to be proven though.

sad but true.
- golfingsince

What else can we go by? Some of the things he did last year were successful, some of them weren't. But it's hard to argue with results. Although as you said, some of it can be attributed to a new work environment.

I know it's not the popular opinion, but I think bringing in Ryan Miller was an excellent move that gave the team confidence, and IMO it showed!! I also think acquiring Dorsett was a good move. I also thinking forcing Willie to keep Horvat was an excellent move.

Moving forward I think getting a highly skilled Baertschi for a second was a good move, and getting Linden Vey was good in that he's young and added depth and he's got a very good chance of getting better....these are moves that are yet to be proven though.
- LeftCoaster

boy do we need the season to start.

we're like players fighting each other in training camp. sure it keeps us busy but it doesn't exactly foster team cohesion or order.

What else can we go by? Some of the things he did last year were successful, some of them weren't. But it's hard to argue with results. Although as you said, some of it can be attributed to a new work environment.

I know it's not the popular opinion, but I think bringing in Ryan Miller was an excellent move that gave the team confidence, and IMO it showed!! I also think acquiring Dorsett was a good move. I also thinking forcing Willie to keep Horvat was an excellent move.

Moving forward I think getting a highly skilled Baertschi for a second was a good move, and getting Linden Vey was good in that he's young and added depth and he's got a very good chance of getting better....these are moves that are yet to be proven though.
- LeftCoaster

Like so many on here, I didn't like the Miller signing, wanted to run with Lack and his cheaper contract. But if the core wanted a more established goalie, they got what they wanted. Lack seems likable, but maybe the core sees a guy that is a head case too. I think signing Dorsett was a good gamble that paid off.

Waiting for Miller to play a few more games before judging. Can Miller put together a 35 win season?

You can certainly interpret the evidence that way, and I'm leaning in that direction as well, but you could also argue that the bounce back season had as much to do with the lack of Tortorella as anything that Benning did.


Edit: I reported myself to save you the trouble Marwood.
- CubanBuffet

Too late.

I don't think there is one of those. I find the other side of the fence to be more of a wait and see crowd.

I personally truly feel that any GM that took over was going to be somewhat handcuffed by the owner, but that might just be my perception.
- golfingsince

Like so many on here, I didn't like the Miller signing, wanted to run with Lack and his cheaper contract. But if the core wanted a more established goalie, they got what they wanted. Lack seems likable, but maybe the core sees a guy that is a head case too. I think signing Dorsett was a good gamble that paid off.

Waiting for Miller to play a few more games before judging. Can Miller put together a 35 win season?
- hillbillydeluxe

one of the real issues that largely gets ignored is the market instability. what i mean by that is the belief that this market will not support a total rebuild, the likes of which nucker would want.

above all, it's my belief that ownership recognizes this. as business people, they don't want the short term dip in revenue and the long term damage to the brand. that is entirely understandable as we are talking about millions, if not 10's of millions of dollars. billionaires don't become billionaires by flitting away money.

in that respect, i believe management is tasked with the unenviable rebuild on the fly model. put simply, being competitive while trying to retool.

because of that, benning has had to make moves that serve both masters: rebuild and compete.

if we start with that premise, you can see the logic in his moves. while it doesn't mean that you have to agree that all his moves are great, it should mean that you can appreciate why certain players are brought in or "overvalued."

serving two masters; rebuild and compete seems to be a herculean task but that is essentially what this team is trying to do.

one of the real issues that largely gets ignored is the market instability. what i mean by that is the belief that this market will not support a total rebuild, the likes of which nucker would want.

above all, it's my belief that ownership recognizes this. as business people, they don't want the short term dip in revenue and the long term damage to the brand. that is entirely understandable as we are talking about millions, if not 10's of millions of dollars. billionaires don't become billionaires by flitting away money.

in that respect, i believe management is tasked with the unenviable rebuild on the fly model. put simply, being competitive while trying to retool.

because of that, benning has had to make moves that serve both masters: rebuild and compete.

if we start with that premise, you can see the logic in his moves. while it doesn't mean that you have to agree that all his moves are great, it should mean that you can appreciate why certain players are brought in or "overvalued."

serving two masters; rebuild and compete seems to be a herculean task but that is essentially what this team is trying to do.
- RealityChecker

Yup.......not that my opinion matters

Yup.......not that my opinion matters
- golfingsince

i should clarify my previous comments re: your opinion. it only matters when you agree with me. the other times, you're just a deluded ontarion.

one of the real issues that largely gets ignored is the market instability. what i mean by that is the belief that this market will not support a total rebuild, the likes of which nucker would want.

above all, it's my belief that ownership recognizes this. as business people, they don't want the short term dip in revenue and the long term damage to the brand. that is entirely understandable as we are talking about millions, if not 10's of millions of dollars. billionaires don't become billionaires by flitting away money.

in that respect, i believe management is tasked with the unenviable rebuild on the fly model. put simply, being competitive while trying to retool.

because of that, benning has had to make moves that serve both masters: rebuild and compete.

if we start with that premise, you can see the logic in his moves. while it doesn't mean that you have to agree that all his moves are great, it should mean that you can appreciate why certain players are brought in or "overvalued."

serving two masters; rebuild and compete seems to be a herculean task but that is essentially what this team is trying to do.
- RealityChecker

If they wanted to tank, they could have kept who they had in management and the coach and saved some $$.

Even though this is a Canadian market, it is not the right market to tank in. Once you lose the casual fans, it will take a lot to get them back again.

I kind of look at tanking the same way as dieting. It might help you to lose weight all of a a sudden, but you still have to get on with your life and start eating right day to day to keep the weight off.

When you tank, you want the high picks to right the ship. But what is more important is the drafting and development year to year after the tank.

We aren't tanking, so it is all about drafting with the picks we have and developing. Slower process. If you are a slob and start eating right, you will get there, just might take longer than if you went on a crazy diet to start.

If they wanted to tank, they could have kept who they had in management and the coach and saved some $$.

Even though this is a Canadian market, it is not the right market to tank in. Once you lose the casual fans, it will take a lot to get them back again.

I kind of look at tanking the same way as dieting. It might help you to lose weight all of a a sudden, but you still have to get on with your life and start eating right day to day to keep the weight off.

When you tank, you want the high picks to right the ship. But what is more important is the drafting and development year to year after the tank.

We aren't tanking, so it is all about drafting with the picks we have and developing. Slower process. If you are a slob and start eating right, you will get there, just might take longer than if you went on a crazy diet to start.
- hillbillydeluxe

Totally agree. This market is too small to have just hardcores fill the building and buy the merchandise but big enough to have a lot of options to spend money elsewhere.

like your dieting analogy. very apt. the slow diet is usually the better one anyway. hopefully it translates in the hockey version.

one of the real issues that largely gets ignored is the market instability. what i mean by that is the belief that this market will not support a total rebuild, the likes of which nucker would want.

above all, it's my belief that ownership recognizes this. as business people, they don't want the short term dip in revenue and the long term damage to the brand. that is entirely understandable as we are talking about millions, if not 10's of millions of dollars. billionaires don't become billionaires by flitting away money.

in that respect, i believe management is tasked with the unenviable rebuild on the fly model. put simply, being competitive while trying to retool.

because of that, benning has had to make moves that serve both masters: rebuild and compete.

if we start with that premise, you can see the logic in his moves. while it doesn't mean that you have to agree that all his moves are great, it should mean that you can appreciate why certain players are brought in or "overvalued."

serving two masters; rebuild and compete seems to be a herculean task but that is essentially what this team is trying to do.
- RealityChecker

I think Vantel is hosting the one on the mainland but the wine selection will be poop.
- Marwood

- Marwood

flagged

Real value is what someone's willing to give, not what's been given in the past, or what we think it should be, different managers around the league hold different values for each and every player. Is there a ballpark value, sure you could say that, but it's not a uniform thing.

Look at what Tim Murray paid for Robin Lehner, the man had ties to him, he drafted him, he paid a first round pick for him (probably because he had several) when no one else in the league probably would have. That doesn't mean every backup is now worth a first, it means that's what Murray was willing to pay for his team.

Each trade, Garrison for instance, has a unique set of circumstances to it. Garrison was traded for a second round pick, he was traded because the team's manager and veteran core determined they needed a veteran goaltender more than they needed a 3/4/5/6 defenseman making over 4 million a year.

Benning needs five years to see how things pan out, to date he's had one very successful season, that can't be argued. I hope he has several more, whether that means drafting and developing, or points wise, or entertainment wise, whatever, I just hope he's successful because I want the team to be successful.
- LeftCoaster

I can understand the sentiment that real value is what someone is willing to give. But I do also think it is fair to judge a GM on what value he is able to get out of his assets and what assets he can acquire for what price relative to his peers in the same market.

Tim Murray made a bad deal in paying what he did for Lehner just as Benning did in acquiring (insert trade here) relative to the market prices IMO.

Otherwise we could say that Was moving Erat for Forsberg was a good deal based upon circumstances or Holmstrom moving Hartnell for Umberger. Bad deals and good deals do occur but the majority are within the same ball park.

I agree Benning needs more time, although I don't think 5 years is the cap for me. Some of his draft picks will be a part of that but his short term decisions will sway my opinion of him before that 5 years is up, good or bad.

I also agree that Benning has been at the helm of one very successful season but I think the majority of the credit should go to the pieces already in place. Too soon to judge him as being successful, same as being a failure.

flagged
- RealityChecker

Damn you!

boy do we need the season to start.

we're like players fighting each other in training camp. sure it keeps us busy but it doesn't exactly foster team cohesion or order.
- RealityChecker

good point

4 weeks until the NHL season starts
2 weeks until the Rugby World Cup starts
1 week until the NFL season starts
F1 from Monza on Sunday