Coots could produce a lot more points with pp1 time also. But flyers are trying to build a pp 2 around him. If you flip their roles and make coots pp1 and Schenn pp2 I think the 10 point discrepancy would be swung bit time in coots favor
- Tfaehner

We have to stop with this narrative that Coots v. Schenn -- Coots does not do the things that B Schenn does well on the Power Play. They play a very different style of game. Just inserting Coots on PP1 unit will not guarantee an uptick in Coots' points.

On that line, Schenn's primary roles are to dig pucks out of the corner so that Simmonds can rove in front of the net, and also distribute the puck to the points or curl up the circle on Giroux's off wing and fire.

Coots doesn't have that same skill set. Period. Coots does a lot of other things well -- transition defense to offense, go one-on-one with opposing forwards, agitate an opponent, carry two limp line partners. But he's also weaker on the puck and not as good a passer as Schenn.

I have seen nothing to date that would indicate that inserting Coots on the PP1 would increase his point totals or the already ridiculous level at which that line is effective.

MacDonald and Porter, Gone !

Coots could produce a lot more points with pp1 time also. But flyers are trying to build a pp 2 around him. If you flip their roles and make coots pp1 and Schenn pp2 I think the 10 point discrepancy would be swung bit time in coots favor
- Tfaehner

I agree, when Hartnell was moved I wanted to see Courturier on that first unit.
I didn't like him dumped to the 2nd unit, as they only usually get what, the last 30 seconds of the power play?
I would still like to see him, or Raffl get more power play time.

Again, not bashing, or criticizing Coots, I love his game.
I'm the one who's always said that his 2way play clearly justifies his modest production, compared to maybe a Briere, who could easily score 60 points, but was considered a poor back checker.
Again, not bashing Briere, but he was not a good defensive player.
I just think Schenn's, all things considered, getting a bit of a raw deal.
He's on the 5th line, whereas Lecavalier is not?
- puckhead17

That's what we're told, but who has looked better in preseason - Laughton/BSchenn or Vinny/Gagner?

We have to stop with this narrative that Coots v. Schenn -- Coots does not do the things that B Schenn does well on the Power Play. They play a very different style of game. Just inserting Coots on PP1 unit will not guarantee an uptick in Coots' points.

On that line, Schenn's primary roles are to dig pucks out of the corner so that Simmonds can rove in front of the net, and also distribute the puck to the points or curl up the circle on Giroux's off wing and fire.

Coots doesn't have that same skill set. Period. Coots does a lot of other things well -- transition defense to offense, go one-on-one with opposing forwards, agitate an opponent, carry two limp line partners. But he's also weaker on the puck and not as good a passer as Schenn.

I have seen nothing to date that would indicate that inserting Coots on the PP1 would increase his point totals or the already ridiculous level at which that line is effective.
- Moose_15

Using Coots was a bad example, that's my bad.
I just don't see us as an offensive juggernaut putting Schenn at the bottom.
And the coach wants all forwards back checking hard, I want to see where that puts Lecavalier. I think it was a mistake not buying him out. I know the cap hit was high, but he's so "in the way", when it comes to Schenn's, & Laughton's development.

MacDonald and Porter, Gone !
- twpguy

Are these transactions or opinion ?.. I have a miserable time finding the player movements anywhere....

That's what we're told, but who has looked better in preseason - Laughton/BSchenn or Vinny/Gagner?
- Feanor

Vinny/Gagner, 2 guys not known for back checking in a 3 zone system.
Well see.

Yeah, I see all you points, your correct the numbers don't lie.
And I do agree Couturier brings more to the table in regards to 2 way play, and producing without the consistency from his wingers.
Not taking a stance on Schenn, over Couturier, not at all.
But bouncing around the lineup like he has, and playing a position not comfortable for his game hasn't helped his cause.
I don't think we have a plethora of offensive weapons either to justify dumping him to a 5th line.
- puckhead17

I agree that B Schenn should, without question, be in the lineup. He is clearly a better player than either VLC or Gagner.

I agree that B Schenn should, without question, be in the lineup. He is clearly a better player than either VLC or Gagner.
- BiggE

I shouldn't have mentioned Coots, 2 different players completely.

Using Coots was a bad example, that's my bad.
I just don't see us as an offensive juggernaut putting Schenn at the bottom.
And the coach wants all forwards back checking hard, I want to see where that puts Lecavalier. I think it was a mistake not buying him out. I know the cap hit was high, but he's so "in the way", when it comes to Schenn's, & Laughton's development.
- puckhead17

My ire is not directed at you! It's an anger at what often seems like we can only support one or the other when it comes to BSchenn and Couturier. The two players do very different things on the ice -- so I don't understand, outside of NHL16, why people assume that moving one to the second line as opposed to the other (or PowerPlay units) will create immediate point production totals and a narrative that playing one negatively impacts the other. Their roles on the team are to perform very different functions.

I agree with your initial point -- VLC just seems to be in the way of younger players, and there isn't really a good option to take because of it. Not VLs fault (I can't blame him for signing a contract and can't get upset at him if he wants that contract honored.)

My sincere hope is that Bill's observations are correct -- that this is a lot of framing. But it really doesn't matter. No matter what you do to the frame, the Leaning Tower of Pisa will always be askew. I think 29 other NHL owners see that, too (and see everyone a number of people who came into the league with VLC begin retiring--Briere, Gagne, St. Louis.)

I agree that B Schenn should, without question, be in the lineup. He is clearly a better player than either VLC or Gagner.
- BiggE

I don't think anyone has ever argued against this. Unless rinaldo was around

Carchidi reporting hextall pushing to move at least 1 of l.LSchenn vinny and umberger.. what a shocking report like patty Kane all over again

Anyone else get the feeling B Schenn may be a healthy scratch to start the season?

My ire is not directed at you! It's an anger at what often seems like we can only support one or the other when it comes to BSchenn and Couturier. The two players do very different things on the ice -- so I don't understand, outside of NHL16, why people assume that moving one to the second line as opposed to the other (or PowerPlay units) will create immediate point production totals and a narrative that playing one negatively impacts the other. Their roles on the team are to perform very different functions.

I agree with your initial point -- VLC just seems to be in the way of younger players, and there isn't really a good option to take because of it. Not VLs fault (I can't blame him for signing a contract and can't get upset at him if he wants that contract honored.)

My sincere hope is that Bill's observations are correct -- that this is a lot of framing. But it really doesn't matter. No matter what you do to the frame, the Leaning Tower of Pisa will always be askew. I think 29 other NHL owners see that, too (and see everyone a number of people who came into the league with VLC begin retiring--Briere, Gagne, St. Louis.)
- Moose_15

He got 2 2nd rounders for Timmonen who hadn't played all year, what I thought was over pay for Coburn. I believe he can move vinny umberger or Schenn. I think to a team with cap space and going nowhere soon would take them for an asset attached. I just think he's trying to exhaust every resource first. Maybe vinny gets 3c and some PP time and actually scores a couple goals quickly does the assets go from a 2nd rounder attached to a 4th rounder ? I'd do it.

Nothing better to read on a Sunday morning than a nice hockey article. Thanks Bill
- five4fighting10

Agreed

Anyone else get the feeling B Schenn may be a healthy scratch to start the season?
- PhillySportsGuy

i will barf all over you if gagner is in over him

He got 2 2nd rounders for Timmonen who hadn't played all year, what I thought was over pay for Coburn. I believe he can move vinny umberger or Schenn. I think to a team with cap space and going nowhere soon would take them for an asset attached. I just think he's trying to exhaust every resource first. Maybe vinny gets 3c and some PP time and actually scores a couple goals quickly does the assets go from a 2nd rounder attached to a 4th rounder ? I'd do it.
- Tfaehner

SO many "ifs" in this scenario, though. 1. Vinny has to want to move (NMC). 2. The Flyers will have to want to eat salary (or give up picks) because of the cap hit. 3. VLC will have to score/play well for this to even begin to be a possibility of having getting to package a later pick. 4. A team will have to want to help the Flyers get out of Salary Cap Hell. And 5. There will have to be an owner, somewhere, who figures he doesn't have one guy in the minors or a prospect or a FA target who can pot 12 goals for 1/5 the cap hit, while skating better and playing a hint of adequate defense.

There is probably a market for Umberger and L. Schenn. But Vinny is very much our burden to carry.

Anyone else get the feeling B Schenn may be a healthy scratch to start the season?
- PhillySportsGuy

It's possible. His brother can keep him company in the Holmgren sunk cost suite.

SO many "ifs" in this scenario, though. 1. Vinny has to want to move (NMC). 2. The Flyers will have to want to eat salary (or give up picks) because of the cap hit. 3. VLC will have to score/play well for this to even begin to be a possibility of having getting to package a later pick. 4. A team will have to want to help the Flyers get out of Salary Cap Hell. And 5. There will have to be an owner, somewhere, who figures he doesn't have one guy in the minors or a prospect or a FA target who can pot 12 goals for 1/5 the cap hit, while skating better and playing a hint of adequate defense.

There is probably a market for Umberger and L. Schenn. But Vinny is very much our burden to carry.
- Moose_15

Not disagreeing but Arizona took 9 million in cap off our hands. It is possible. If vinny is in a press box and has an opportunity to play I find it hard to imagine he'd veto.

And I agree Schenn is the most move able asset even umberger I believe has to show he actually has rebounded.

Not disagreeing but Arizona took 9 million in cap off our hands. It is possible. If vinny is in a press box and has an opportunity to play I find it hard to imagine he'd veto.

And I agree Schenn is the most move able asset even umberger I believe has to show he actually has rebounded.
- Tfaehner

Arizona took 9 million off because they're trying to loophole their way to the salary floor. I don't think that's going to happen with Vinny. Arizona needed to take on salary just to get to the floor and they were just as desperate to do that as the Flyers were to shed salary (and honestly, the Flyers had the advantage there, because they had no real need to trade Pronger's salary, since it was well under the 10% overage and would come right off the books with LTIR). Arizona got 9 million dollars of cap hit with a real cap cost of around 4 million (Pronger's 525k and Grossman's 3.5 million).

Vinny still has another season and another $2million bonus payment, which was why he's assumed to retire after July 1 of next year, after the bonus is paid and the Flyers are only on the books for like league minimum. I don't think any magic beans in the world will help Hextall move Vinny's contract.

I'm with you -- I want to hope that it can happen, but I just don't see any teams in the NHL currently who are so desperate to take on a 3rd line center with 15 goal potential, with a bad back and high salary and suspect backchecking, powerplay specialist.

My ire is not directed at you! It's an anger at what often seems like we can only support one or the other when it comes to BSchenn and Couturier. The two players do very different things on the ice -- so I don't understand, outside of NHL16, why people assume that moving one to the second line as opposed to the other (or PowerPlay units) will create immediate point production totals and a narrative that playing one negatively impacts the other. Their roles on the team are to perform very different functions.

I agree with your initial point -- VLC just seems to be in the way of younger players, and there isn't really a good option to take because of it. Not VLs fault (I can't blame him for signing a contract and can't get upset at him if he wants that contract honored.)

My sincere hope is that Bill's observations are correct -- that this is a lot of framing. But it really doesn't matter. No matter what you do to the frame, the Leaning Tower of Pisa will always be askew. I think 29 other NHL owners see that, too (and see everyone a number of people who came into the league with VLC begin retiring--Briere, Gagne, St. Louis.)
- Moose_15

Which is why VL should have been bought out, I know it hurts our cap position for 1/2 years before the buyout becomes manageable, but he has no place on this team.
And a new system that preaches 3 zone play, and hard skating will only validate this further. I can't see continuing to carry a guy for 3 more years, who's only benefit is a 2nd unit PP one timer. Especially when he's taking ice time away from younger players that play the position, (at this point in his career), better than he can.
Unless they plan to sit him out, for a least another year, who knows?
I hope its a frame job as well, problem is the more you play him, the worse he looks, hence no one wants him.
And we're back to square one.

Arizona took 9 million off because they're trying to loophole their way to the salary floor. I don't think that's going to happen with Vinny. Arizona needed to take on salary just to get to the floor and they were just as desperate to do that as the Flyers were to shed salary (and honestly, the Flyers had the advantage there, because they had no real need to trade Pronger's salary, since it was well under the 10% overage and would come right off the books with LTIR). Arizona got 9 million dollars of cap hit with a real cap cost of around 4 million (Pronger's 525k and Grossman's 3.5 million).

Vinny still has another season and another $2million bonus payment, which was why he's assumed to retire after July 1 of next year, after the bonus is paid and the Flyers are only on the books for like league minimum. I don't think any magic beans in the world will help Hextall move Vinny's contract.

- Moose_15

Vinny's $2m bonus for 15-16 has already been paid. He is only due $8.5m over the next three seasons.

http://www.generalfanager.com/players/1528

$2.5m for the 15-16 season

$500K as a bonus on 7/1/16

$2.5m for the 16-17 season

$3m for the 17-18 season

Using Coots was a bad example, that's my bad.
I just don't see us as an offensive juggernaut putting Schenn at the bottom.
And the coach wants all forwards back checking hard, I want to see where that puts Lecavalier. I think it was a mistake not buying him out. I know the cap hit was high, but he's so "in the way", when it comes to Schenn's, & Laughton's development.
- puckhead17

Agree with you on Schenn. Once you get past G and Jake it's really just a bunch of guys. If I were to rank the flyers offensive players I'd have to put Schenn at number 4 after Simmonds

Bill Meltzer: Roster Battles, Systems, Gostisbehere, Prospects and More
- bmeltzer

I don't understand why there has been such an unnecessary focus on Brayden Schenn. I mean, what has Sam Gagner accomplished his entire career? Lecavalier and Umberger are in clear decline. The team needs a bounce back season from Andrew MacDonald.

The organization myself has yet to assign both a role and a single position for this young kid but somehow that's his fault. The organization signed Vincent Lecavalier and drafted Scott Laughton after trading for Schenn, who should probably be assigned to a second or third center role but somehow the pressure is on Schenn. Regardless of position, throe this kid a bone, find this kid a role, roll with him for the entire season.

I personally don't think comparing Schenn to Couturier makes much sense..
Both are different players that play different styles.

I know for the Flyers to really succeed this season both of them need to bounce back some from last season. Both of them need to progress as young players and show the growth we all hope for..

I don't find either to be untouchable, I don't think Couturier or Schenn are some massive production storm waiting to happen but I do believe they are important parts to the success we all expect to be there in 2 to 3 years.

I don't understand why there has been such an unnecessary focus on Brayden Schenn. I mean, what has Sam Gagner accomplished his entire career? Lecavalier and Umberger are in clear decline. The team needs a bounce back season from Andrew MacDonald.

The organization myself has yet to assign both a role and a single position for this young kid but somehow that's his fault. The organization signed Vincent Lecavalier and drafted Scott Laughton after trading for Schenn, who should probably be assigned to a second or third center role but somehow the pressure is on Schenn. Regardless of position, throe this kid a bone, find this kid a role, roll with him for the entire season.
- SuperSchennBros

yes