But... fines are part of the CBA, so the PA has some say into how much. For me, suspensions and fines (also retaliatory) are a false argument because I don't see the PA being comfortable w/ heavier amounts. I could be wrong.

I would venture to say Luke Schenn is perfectly okay w/ his instigator penalty vs. NYR. You're spot-on about fighting/ sticking-up for team-mates. Other clubs notice these things and if the Pens aren't going to defend their best mates, then get used to more hits for the balance of the season. The lack of response happens to be my biggest gripe against the Pens (e.g. Maatta and Crosby). Bueller?
- out_of_market

Anaheim is 2nd in the league in fighting majors and defends their teammates all the time but that didn't deter Barrie from trying to separate Despres' head from his shoulders with an illegal hit. Fighting is a retaliatory actions that makes the fans feel good because something was done but it does nothing as a preventive action.

Anaheim is 2nd in the league in fighting majors and defends their teammates all the time but that didn't deter Barrie from trying to separate Despres' head from his shoulders with an illegal hit. Fighting is a retaliatory actions that makes the fans feel good because something was done but it does nothing as a preventive action.
- jaydogg1974

You will never remove these plays from hockey. You just need to accept them and stop arguing about hypotheticals.

So you're going to let them bully your stars because you are afraid they will retaliate if you retaliate. That's a good way for people to continue treating you like poop.

They send a goon after Dubi. If they want retribution on that goon, they can have it, they just need to take it.
- RonPielep

The goon isn't going to be the player they come after for retribution, they are going to come after Sid/Geno/Letang even harder.

Anaheim is 2nd in the league in fighting majors and defends their teammates all the time but that didn't deter Barrie from trying to separate Despres' head from his shoulders with an illegal hit. Fighting is a retaliatory actions that makes the fans feel good because something was done but it does nothing as a preventive action.
- jaydogg1974

That's how I feel. Fighting a goon after one of their players gets ran gives the fans a sense of justice and is good for the locker room, but doesn't do much else. I understand the idea of the instigator rule. It makes sure that someone doesn't mug a player for laying out a clean hit just because it happened to be on a star player, which I think is lame. Kind of when Chicago fans where crying because Orpik didn't want to fight after his hit on Toews or when Voracek mugged Scuds after he hit a flyer. But those situations are few and far between and the instigator rule does more harm than good, especially when the league isn't doing garbage about discipline.

So you're going to let them bully your stars because you are afraid they will retaliate if you retaliate. That's a good way for people to continue treating you like poop.

They send a goon after Dubi. If they want retribution on that goon, they can have it, they just need to take it.
- RonPielep

They run the stars anyway. Dubi's been taking cheap shot's on Sid for years. Since nothing is ever done, why would he stop?

I missed where the blogger titled this blog Oduya assaults Parise. So yeah.
- smellmyfinger

You also missed the best goal to date - but that's hockey, so I'm not sure you understand that real well seeing as though you only comment on other things (probably hiding some inadequacies) nothing to do with hockey??

The goon isn't going to be the player they come after for retribution, they are going to come after Sid/Geno/Letang even harder.
- jaydogg1974

I don't think that's how it usually plays out. First off it's not like every CBJ player is a piece of poop cheap shot artist, it was mostly between Dubi and Cros. I think once you smash Dubi's teeth into the ice and he is stuck in the dressing room trying to piece together his face it would not only deter him from going after Crosby again, but it would deter other would-be potential cheap-shot artists.

Usually I think the way this thing ends is the CBJ goon comes out and fight your goon that just took out Dubi. They don't just keep sending cheap shots at players who have done nothing to deserve it.

That's how I feel. Fighting a goon after one of their players gets ran gives the fans a sense of justice and is good for the locker room, but doesn't do much else. I understand the idea of the instigator rule. It makes sure that someone doesn't mug a player for laying out a clean hit just because it happened to be on a star player, which I think is lame. Kind of when Chicago fans where crying because Orpik didn't want to fight after his hit on Toews or when Voracek mugged Scuds after he hit a flyer. But those situations are few and far between and the instigator rule does more harm than good, especially when the league isn't doing garbage about discipline.
- Victoro311

Yeah I think it is totally fair for players to want to avoid a fight after throwing a clean hit. You see Subban do this all the time, like when he hit Marchand, no reason Subban should have to drop the gloves after throwing a clean check.

But when players like Neal or Kadri throw a dirty cheap shot hit then I think they deserve to take what's coming to them.

The mentality of the players has changed and removing the instagitor is pointless, you can't force a player to drop the gloves so a player like Dubinsky will still run wild and will simply refuse to drop the gloves when confronted, he'll turtle if a guy throws anyway and will laugh his ass of as that guy heads to the box and his team gains an advantage. We saw this during that exact game when Hornqvist ran Calvert with an unnecessary hit and then refuse to go when several guys including Calvert challenged him.

The only thing that is going to deter players is heavy hits to their check books, losing 31K going to deter a player like Dubinsky who gets paid millions to do exactly what he did but 20 games and 600k will certainly open his eyes.
- jaydogg1974

I've said this before, if a grub like Dubinsky does what he usually does then run either the goalie or Johansen, run I mean injure - simple. It's not a deterrent it's retribution to show you cannot do that & it's exactly what Dubinsky did (BUT HES NOT A DIRTY PLAYER). Then if the Ass Jackets turn it on like they did after a simple Horny hit, then let the refs sort it out - force the refs to sort it out. Put players in the team that will play but also be very loose when needed. Imbeciles like a Torts will say (frank) it let's do more but I would bet your left bollock that the refs would step in. Keep the stars off the ice for a few shifts if it's too hot & grind - the grinders played well against the Blues!! (How many minutes did they get over the following 2 games???).

This all skill team (& I said it at the start of the season), won't get it done against these types of lower end teams that target players with cheap shots. We lost yesterday because of the Ass Jackets game - the Blues game got edgy then the AJ's stepped that up a notch & we were done. Can't wait to see what the Flyers have in store!!!

I don't think that's how it usually plays out. First off it's not like every CBJ player is a piece of poop cheap shot artist, it was mostly between Dubi and Cros. I think once you smash Dubi's teeth into the ice and he is stuck in the dressing room trying to piece together his face it would not only deter him from going after Crosby again, but it would deter other would-be potential cheap-shot artists.

Usually I think the way this thing ends is the CBJ goon comes out and fight your goon that just took out Dubi. They don't just keep sending cheap shots at players who have done nothing to deserve it.
- RonPielep

Actually that's how it works a lot of the time. Especially when it's a small time goon like Prust taking runs at a star player instead of a big time goon like Dubinsky or Backes taking runs at star players. If Prust, Downie, or Martin take a run at a star, usually the play is for the opposing goon to go after a Sedin, Domi, or JT until the cheap shots stop, which just causes a circle of violence. That's another reason why self policing doesn't work and is purely reactionary. A lot of the time in practice it doesn't work the way it's supposed to in theory and games get out of hand and dangerous.

The goon isn't going to be the player they come after for retribution, they are going to come after Sid/Geno/Letang even harder.
- jaydogg1974

If play has started to go over the top after a retaliation then the zebs will step in - keep the stars off the ice for a shift or 2 but keep the fire on the ice. Let it blow up & the zebs put a couple off the ice for the game.

For our specific team it's a catch 22. When no one sticks up for our guys when they get ran, we complain that we're soft. When they do and the game gets out of hand because everyone got overly emotional then we're pissed because we played like jackasses. What we need is a guy or two that can play good hockey but also take care of jackassery when it happens without having Malkin and Letang taking stupid and emotional penalties. Despres could have been that guy. I was hoping that Plotnikov would be that guy. I had a little bit of hope that Dumoulin could turn into that guy. Unfortunately we traded Despres, Plotnikov ended up not being as physical as billed, and Dumoulin is who he is. However, I'd rather not have someone like that and ice a team of guys that can all play hockey than have a guy like Sestito or John Scott who are complete liabilities on the ice.
- Victoro311

Nice use of jackassery! Its an under utilized noun.

We agree on players like Sesito or Scott; they bring very little value to a team. Also, agree that Despres could (and should) have been that guy. Too late. The league, let alone the Pens are void of guys like Shanahan, Tkachuk, Pronger, Stevens, Iginla (young), Tocchet, Neely, etc... These guys could play, they were tough, tough to play against, dropped the gloves, and contributed to team success. Not too many of these types of player left.

I get your catch 22, but at the same time, there's a difference between rampant emotions + meltdowns and legitimately sticking up for a team-mate. The former should be discouraged, while the latter promoted. Again, Bueller?

Yeah I think it is totally fair for players to want to avoid a fight after throwing a clean hit. You see Subban do this all the time, like when he hit Marchand, no reason Subban should have to drop the gloves after throwing a clean check.

But when players like Neal or Kadri throw a dirty cheap shot hit then I think they deserve to take what's coming to them.
- RonPielep

I like fights but I was always the first to defend Orpik when he turtled after throwing a clean hit on a star. If you have to fight every time you throw a really good hit on a top 6 guy then what's going to happen is guys are gonna stop hitting the stars as much which is bad for the game. The more good, clean, hard hits the better. That's entertainment. So while the instigator rule helps in that regard, it hurts way more than it helps. Let's guys like Neal, Marchand, Cooke, and Dubinsky run around and do what they want. League is rewarding them big time because they're not being decouplined and they're protected from fights.

You will never remove these plays from hockey. You just need to accept them and stop arguing about hypotheticals.
- rangerdanger94

That's an insanely illogical argument. You can't stop all goals from being scored either, doesn't mean teams don't make an effort to reduce them as much as possible. Severe league suspensions can at the very least remove the biggest offenders from the ice for significant time.

One anecdotal incident means nothing. Hit their profits and it'll work almost every time. Have players police themselves and it will work half the time maybe. As was the case with Cooke and Neal. People went after him and it never changed their behavior at all.
- jfkst1

10 or 20 game suspensions will certainly change their coaches opinions. They will find it tough getting a contract if they start sitting in the stands for large periods of time after stupid actions got them suspended! Not to mention the game misconducts if the zebs actually refereed the rules & threw them out of the game!

10 or 20 game suspensions will certainly change their coaches opinions. They will find it tough getting a contract if they start sitting in the stands for large periods of time after stupid actions got them suspended! Not to mention the game misconducts if the zebs actually refereed the rules & threw them out of the game!
- Aussiepenguin

Curious, how to they manage this stuff in rugby? The NFL has forgotten more about managing a league than the morons running the NHL will ever know.

It will take a player getting permanently injured in one of these plays followed by the owners getting sued for negligence. One could argue Dubi's 1 game suspension is encouragement instead of a deterrent. Take 50 million out of the owners pockets and things will change over night.
- madmike71

It would be impossible to know, but if Dubinsky had got a 20 game suspension do you think we would be talking about The other 'assaults' today? Would the players have made those plays with a 20 game suspension handed out 2 days before hand??

Curious, how to they manage this stuff in rugby? The NFL has forgotten more about managing a league than the morons running the NHL will ever know.
- jfkst1

Here in the NRL (national rugby league), punching has been outlawed it's an instant 10 penalty on the sidelines if you throw a punch. That has been very controversial & most want punching allowed but the organisation has stood firm. That has brought other types of grubby tactics into play which are 10 x worse!!!

Players are reviewed every game by video refs after the games & sited to appear before the judiciary if the refs miss anything. During a game the refs can put a player on report which means he will face the judiciary but only give a penalty (no time off the field just possession to the other team), during the game.

Different offences have different points that are associated for a sanction. If you go over 100 points I think there is an immediate suspension of 1 game. The points continue to accumulate through the year as you infringe more.

Different types of rulings where there is 'accidental', 'reckless' & 'dangerous' contact. Different grades have different points associated with the infringements but are concrete - the judiciary is governed by the existing sanctions in place, they just judge what the action was. Dangerous play of any kind & you are sitting on the sidelines for at least a month which is 4 games (1 game per week). 8 weeks is severe for a sanction as we play 24 games in a season before semi finals or playoffs.

The NHL system is a joke! Simple as that.

It would be impossible to know, but if Dubinsky had got a 20 game suspension do you think we would be talking about The other 'assaults' today? Would the players have made those plays with a 20 game suspension handed out 2 days before hand??
- Aussiepenguin

And that's my point about disproportional punishment. It's not going to seem fair when the specific situation is isolated but it could go a long way in a league wide scope.

The NHL system is a joke! Simple as that.
- Aussiepenguin

Appreciate the feedback. Sounds like a comprehensive system which is wise IMO. And yeah, unfortunately my favorite sport has terrible management.

http://nhl.nbcsports.com/2015/11/29/hey-tortorella-called-the-penguins-whiners-again/

Tortorella said: “Pittsburgh whines enough for the whole league.”
- dmarsden2988

I think thats a pretty classic comment actually as Torts does hate the Pens with a passion.

But I see all these fans now suddenly Torts fans because his Ass Jackets beat up the Pens - fans now are Torts fans???? Really???? Next we'll see a whole lot of Rinaldo fans come out of the woodwork????

I actually think he's one of the best posters on this site.....and you need him during international tournaments. He's the best you have.
- Jeropotato

Potato(yeah he has the word potato in his name) and a$$ ranger are back again?! Yay! Can't get enough of their stupid useless comments.

Appreciate the feedback. Sounds like a comprehensive system which is wise IMO. And yeah, unfortunately my favorite sport has terrible management.
- jfkst1

As much as most hate the no punch rule it's solid & EVERYONE follows it - even the hardest sob's on the field because if they get 10min sin bin their coach will (frank) them up! I think we had 3 or 4 so far this year where players were sin binned but it's nearly T- Rex territory & extinct!

The points system is solid. Everyone knows what will happen if they get cited to appear at the judiciary for an offence. It could very well be introduced in the NHL as well but that would mean hard & fast sanctions that would be hard to explain if they weren't controlled - there are occasions here where players aren't sanctioned & clearly should be, but that's the 5% poop rule where things aren't going to be 100%.

We had a player last season suspended for 2 matches for throwing a water bottle at an opposition player from the bench - 2 (frank)ing matches which was the semi final!!

Then that week a player that hit an opposing players head - normally instant suspension got nothing!! Crazy, but it's not common.

Dubinsky a I think would have had an accidental contact charge for the first cross check & how ever many points associated with that but no suspension unless his previous points totals were high, then a dangerous contact charge for the following breaking his stick over Sid. That would have carried a lot heavier fine on its own & he probably would be sitting out for a couple of weeks which would equal a month in the NHL. Will he do it again after that suspension? Probably because he IS a dirty player!!

Potato(yeah he has the word potato in his name) and a$$ ranger are back again?! Yay! Can't get enough of their stupid useless comments.
- Dcoms

Jero is just fishing for a reaction, Ranger Danger has been told to (frank) off many times in the Oilers thread!

Hey penis ranger why don't you throw up some more contextless so called Crosby cheapshots where you only see him react not a whole games worth of the other team doing dirty To him first until he gets fed up and retaliates like, you know, every clip on you youtube? It's more fun to say Crosby is a cheap shot artist than human and sick of it being done to him. Just hold Crosby to an impossible standard where it's only a cheap shot if he does it right? I would still love to pull your esophagus out of your brainstem. Does no one on the Ranger board pay attention to you so you get your troll on over here?