James, the metrics you used that show Jake is having the better season are all relative to their team mates, are they not?

Could they not indicate that his peers are not having great years, and he is relatively better? I.e. he is having a good year on a bad team?

As an example, if these advanced stats were available in the 70's, would Guy Lapointe, Serge Savard and Larry Robinson all have huge CF/CA/CD relative to their team mates?

Which then begs the question... the best player on a bad team vs a mediocre player on a great team... which is truly better?

You know the "enhanced stats" on NHL.com are ridiculed for being wildly inaccurate right?
- jfkst1

Before the NHL re-did their stats page on their website, you used to be able to divide the team real time stats by home and away.

The inconsistencies were so glaring (hits was a particularly bad one, with some home statisticians wildly over-inflating their home team's numbers) that you were forced to conclude that the real time stats were not worth the paper they were written on.

Moneypuck apologists will mumble something about sample size to defend it, but when you consistently have the same problems, sample size doesn't help.

But they would never be far enough off reality to make a big difference in the aggregate.
- James_Tanner

That is your presumption.

I do not agree.

Unlike baseball, where each event can be calculated and statistically placed in a silo due to the nature of how each event occurs (pitch, contact, etc...), hockey is a fluid game that is harder to adequately place an event in a specific silo.

Hockey will never ever be able to have a reliability with advanced stats like baseball, and to use the stats in a comparative manner to define value of a player, is just ludicrous.

But have at it.

I happen to think you are wrong.

Before the NHL re-did their stats page on their website, you used to be able to divide the team real time stats by home and away.

The inconsistencies were so glaring (hits was a particularly bad one, with some home statisticians wildly over-inflating their home team's numbers) that you were forced to conclude that the real time stats were not worth the paper they were written on.

Moneypuck apologists will mumble something about sample size to defend it, but when you consistently have the same problems, sample size doesn't help.
- Atomic Wedgie

interesting.

many of the more recent metrics claim hits don't matter....i guess i'm not surprised they came to that conclusion based on the integrity of the data.

Before the NHL re-did their stats page on their website, you used to be able to divide the team real time stats by home and away.

The inconsistencies were so glaring (hits was a particularly bad one, with some home statisticians wildly over-inflating their home team's numbers) that you were forced to conclude that the real time stats were not worth the paper they were written on.

Moneypuck apologists will mumble something about sample size to defend it, but when you consistently have the same problems, sample size doesn't help.
- Atomic Wedgie

Yost is a "moneypuck" guy that identified the problems with the stats.
http://sports.yahoo.com/b...to-critics-171611387.html

Just stop has become one of the worst cliches there is. Like "just saying" only worse.

I will never stop. You may notice the difference between us is I backed up my views with facts and evidence while you attempted to be condescending without reading it. If you read it, you'd see some amusing irony in your post.
- James_Tanner

Holy poop I'm dying at the irony of you accusing people of being condescending without reading first... Well that, and your claim to use "facts and evidence" when in reality you just cherry pick what suits your argument and ignore the rest.

Just to remind everyone of why Tanner is so amusing...

http://www.hockeybuzz.com...p?thread_id=132362&page=5

I think it's because Gardiner plays for the Leafs. If he played on the yotes would anyone get so upset?
He has been very, very good this season. His trade value should be very strong if they ever moved him.

the player whose advanced stats seem to indicate he's not quite teh worldbeater his reputation sets him out to be is shea weber. have seen a number of writeups this year on his stats tapering off the past few seasons. and yet, he's the consensus #1 RD for canada on anyone's mock roster for the world cup.

Gardiner's a decent defenseman but the Warrior chart is misleading in that it might make people who don't understand the underlying measures think Gardiner is better.

Doughty puts up superior ice time, goals, assists and points.
Gardiner puts up superior CF60 RelTM, CA60RelTM and CD60 RelTM (all stats measured relative to teammates).

LA is currently ranked #1 in the league with a team 54.8% CF, a full 3.5% ahead of the Leafs. It's no surprise that Gardiner shows superior CF60 / CA60 / CD60 RelTm to Doughty because Gardiner plays on a team that has some really poopty players on it. Likewise, it's really tough for Doughty to put up great numbers because his team is so very, very good from a Corsi perspective.

If you compare them directly I think you get a better idea of how dominant each is - Doughty is rocking an ungodly 58.2 CF% at 5v5, good for fifth overall in the league and first amongst defensemen, minimum 500 mins played. (Coincidentally, LA players occupy the top 7 spots leaguewide in that statistic, and 8 of the top 10). Meanwhile, you have Gardiner sitting at a respectable 52.8 CF%, good for 108th overall and 35th amongst defensemen. All of a sudden he's not looking quite on par with Doughty...
- TheMaritimer

Hmm, I dont know a lot about advanced stats but if James Tanner's number are only relative to players' teammates then I'd say his are flawed. If you are talking about defencemen across teams, this sounds like a proper application of the numbers.

Just stop has become one of the worst cliches there is. Like "just saying" only worse.

I will never stop. You may notice the difference between us is I backed up my views with facts and evidence while you attempted to be condescending without reading it. If you read it, you'd see some amusing irony in your post.
- James_Tanner

You've completely missed (avoided) his point, Tanner. He's pointing out that you're reverting back to your cheap gimmicks to get hits. Your last two blogs featured the Coyotes logo and Coyotes content. And they got no hits. So you've popped Drew Doughty in the picture and referenced Jake Gardiner in the heading. It's the only way you can entice people to read. You'll notice that none of the other bloggers resort to these bush-league tactics

The Leafs of the past 3 seasons must be the unluckiest team in the history of hockey.

They have the equivalent of Drew Doughty on defense and the equivalent of Steven Stamkos as a 1st/2nd line center in Kadri, and yet somehow their won-loss record in this era is in the bottom 5 of the league. Bummer.
- Snowblind

They'll have Stamkos soon enough.

You've completely missed (avoided) his point, Tanner. He's pointing out that you're reverting back to your cheap gimmicks to get hits. Your last two blogs featured the Coyotes logo and Coyotes content. And they got no hits. So you've popped Drew Doughty in the picture and referenced Jake Gardiner in the heading. It's the only way you can entice people to read. You'll notice that none of the other bloggers resort to these bush-league tactics
- AxlRose91

Maybe if so many people did no respond and show so much emotion from his first blog he would not have written this one.

Yost is a "moneypuck" guy that identified the problems with the stats.
http://sports.yahoo.com/b...to-critics-171611387.html
- jfkst1

It's a good article, but it doesn't address my fundamental problem with NHL advanced stats:

I don't trust any of the numbers in which one person subjectively decides if something is a hit or giveaway.

There's just no standard across 30 rinks.

I love how much this guy hates the oilers. Relentless


Did your girl cheat on you with Ryan smyth or something ? Double teamed by Lowe and mact perhaps ?
- HB77

They'll have Stamkos soon enough.
- RogerRoeper

I'm confident we can kill his career, too.

It's a good article, but it doesn't address my fundamental problem with NHL advanced stats:

I don't trust any of the numbers in which one person subjectively decides if something is a hit or giveaway.

There's just no standard across 30 rinks.
- Atomic Wedgie

My point exactly.

Too much subjectivity... that is why they are directional, not absolute.

I'm confident we can kill his career, too.
- Atomic Wedgie

In fairness, Cooper is already doing that.

Before the NHL re-did their stats page on their website, you used to be able to divide the team real time stats by home and away.

The inconsistencies were so glaring (hits was a particularly bad one, with some home statisticians wildly over-inflating their home team's numbers) that you were forced to conclude that the real time stats were not worth the paper they were written on.

Moneypuck apologists will mumble something about sample size to defend it, but when you consistently have the same problems, sample size doesn't help.
- Atomic Wedgie

True. I remember that players on both sides had more steals when they played in Detroit, for whatever reason. It wasn't biased, but there were definitely more steals at JLA than anywhere else.

I'm confident we can kill his career, too.
- Atomic Wedgie

I am sure some NHL stats will say otherwise... don't worry, there is hope.

On a side note, I think the Leafs would be batter off without Stamkos, save the cap space for more deals down the road (ie: sell cap for players or picks) and keep building.

It's a good article, but it doesn't address my fundamental problem with NHL advanced stats:

I don't trust any of the numbers in which one person subjectively decides if something is a hit or giveaway.

There's just no standard across 30 rinks.
- Atomic Wedgie

That's why you should use multiple outlets that track and have an interest in accuracy rather than reporting to the league/team.

I am sure some NHL stats will say otherwise... don't worry, there is hope.

On a side note, I think the Leafs would be batter off without Stamkos, save the cap space for more deals down the road (ie: sell cap for players or picks) and keep building.
- Mashadar

I couldn't agree more.

That's why you should use multiple outlets that track and have an interest in accuracy rather than reporting to the league/team.
- jfkst1

I'd rather just buy a $19 bucket of beer, sit back and enjoy the game.

People, people....
It's all just a charming scam

Give James your comment, let him keep the blog alive. Don't get trivial by looking at the content - we all know the more inane, the better odds are of intelligent people pointing out the absurdities...

No need to get worked up. It's only Tanner, the laughingstock blogger.

Tanner, you do understand that purely shot based metrics to quantify Defencemen's ability is not the most accurate representation on someones talent.

Currently thats the only data collection method, however I do not believe its paints the complete picture of a players ability, as it only takes Offence zone and Defensive zone shot situations into account.
- DDM-Coga

Interesting point

People, people....
It's all just a charming scam

Give James your comment, let him keep the blog alive. Don't get trivial by looking at the content - we all know the more inane, the better odds are of intelligent people pointing out the absurdities...

No need to get worked up. It's only Tanner, the laughingstock blogger.
- jackzack87

What I see is Tanner providing evidence for his argument, and a bunch of people saying "Gardiner Sux".