James Tanner: Gardiner, Doughty and the Case of the Advanced Stats Bandit Advanced stats lead us to make some seemingly strange arguments.

This sums it up

Why don't you compare RNH versus Johansen on those charts? You always said RNH was better but those charts don't depict that. Same thing with Hall versus Duchene. Hall doesn't look any better.

What does Gardiner vs OEL look like? Would you trade OEL for Gardiner? Would you trade OEL for Muzzin?

Drew Doughty hasn't played with Jake Muzzin all season. He has played with Brayden McNabb. Muzzin is paired with Alec Martinez.

Drew Doughty hasn't played with Jake Muzzin all season. He has played with Brayden McNabb. Muzzin is paired with Alec Martinez.
- tkecanuck341

That is actually true. 130 minutes with Muzzin, but over 700 with McNabb. Will adjust accordingly.

Drew Doughty hasn't played with Jake Muzzin all season. He has played with Brayden McNabb. Muzzin is paired with Alec Martinez.
- tkecanuck341

Dont let the facts get in the way of a good story...

Why don't you compare RNH versus Johansen on those charts? You always said RNH was better but those charts don't depict that. Same thing with Hall versus Duchene. Hall doesn't look any better.
- jfkst1

I love how much this guy hates the oilers. Relentless


Did your girl cheat on you with Ryan smyth or something ? Double teamed by Lowe and mact perhaps ?

Why don't you compare RNH versus Johansen on those charts? You always said RNH was better but those charts don't depict that. Same thing with Hall versus Duchene. Hall doesn't look any better.
- jfkst1

If you look at 2016, RJ is probably having a better year. But if you compare careers , RNH is simply way better.

It's reasonable to say that Doughty is a better overall player than Gardiner, but this year, not so much.

I love how much this guy hates the oilers. Relentless


Did your girl cheat on you with Ryan smyth or something ? Double teamed by Lowe and mact perhaps ?
- HB77

Joey gave her a tickle

I love how much this guy hates the oilers. Relentless


Did your girl cheat on you with Ryan smyth or something ? Double teamed by Lowe and mact perhaps ?
- HB77

What? You're missing the point. I'm indifferent on the Oilers. Couldn't care less about them. I pointing out Tanner's hypocrisy in using those charts to defend Gardiner whilst disregarding them in arguments he made about other players. Either use them consistently or don't use them at all.

Jake gardiner is tough to figure out.
One night a world beater, then the next a total gongshow.

He reminds me of sekera abit as both are quality skaters and talented. (Gardiner abit moreso) but while both look like they should be offensive guys, they struggle to put any meaningful offensive numbers while their true talent lies in defending

Also, I absolutely think advanced stats are useful and have a place in the game, and i think Gardiner is probably underrated by most. but there's no piece of paper that's gonna tell me jake Gardiner is in Drew doughtys class. Drew doughty does so many things for his team and controls games from the backend like very few can. Hes the superior nhl'er by a country mile in my opinion.

What? You're missing the point. I'm indifferent on the Oilers. Couldn't care less about them. I pointing out Tanner's hypocrisy in using those charts to defend Gardiner whilst disregarding them in arguments he made about other players. Either use them consistently or don't use them at all.
- jfkst1

Do you even know what hypocrisy is?

Let me quote my man Emerson for you "A foolish consistency is the hoggoblin of the mind....."

But I don't even think I'm being inconsistent. I specifically call for a non-extreme not black/white either/or approach.

If anyone wants to actually talk about the article I am happy to.

Jake gardiner is tough to figure out.
One night a world beater, then the next a total gongshow.

He reminds me of sekera abit as both are quality skaters and talented. (Gardiner abit moreso) but while both look like they should be offensive guys, their true talent lies in defending

Also, I absolutely think advanced stats are useful and have a place in the game, but there's no piece of paper that's gonna tell me jake Gardiner is in Drew doughtys class. Drew doughty does so many things for his team and controls games from the backend like few can. Hes the superior nhl'er by a country mile in my opinion.
- HB77

Ok , not to disagree with you or argue with you really, but isn't the point that we should maybe consider why he's better by a mile?
I guess my point is not to get anyone to think Gardiner is better or Doughty is worse, just that what youre saying above can't really be backed up compared to what I am saying.

So it isn't necessarily wrong, it's just the type of thinking we have to question. Doughty is a top 3 pick that has won at every level. That's almost a guarantee to make a player at least somewhat overrated.

Ok , not to disagree with you or argue with you really, but isn't the point that we should maybe consider why he's better by a mile?
I guess my point is not to get anyone to think Gardiner is better or Doughty is worse, just that what youre saying above can't really be backed up compared to what I am saying.

So it isn't necessarily wrong, it's just the type of thinking we have to question. Doughty is a top 3 pick that has won at every level. That's almost a guarantee to make a player at least somewhat overrated.
- James_Tanner

Doughty has intangibles that you can't measure on your nerd charts Tanner. The physicality and heart that Doughty shows make him way better and more valuable than Gardiner.

Doughty has intangibles that you can't measure on your nerd charts Tanner. The physicality and heart that Doughty shows make him way better and more valuable than Gardiner.
- NEONDOUBLEDION

Except that if that makes you a better player then you will have better stats in things that correlate to winning. How do you know that Doughty's heart doesn't enable him to suppress two shots per game and that they are already showing up in the stats?

Intangibles are real, but they aren't bonuses added after all other things have been accounted for.

gone back to ole faithful for hits eh?

just stop.

This is a good article. The most important point is that stats allow for more discussion, and discussion of points that we can't have without stats. Stats CAN lead to wrong conclusions, but they are important to the conversation, just as the eye test is. Dismissing relevant information for whatever reason is ridiculous.

Ok , not to disagree with you or argue with you really, but isn't the point that we should maybe consider why he's better by a mile?
I guess my point is not to get anyone to think Gardiner is better or Doughty is worse, just that what youre saying above can't really be backed up compared to what I am saying.

So it isn't necessarily wrong, it's just the type of thinking we have to question. Doughty is a top 3 pick that has won at every level. That's almost a guarantee to make a player at least somewhat overrated.
- James_Tanner

We've been through this. Because the game isn't played on paper. And can't just be quantified through numbers. It's fluid and ever changing. One can't quantify small decisions/how a player can change opppsition strategy/ how negating a certain scheme can tip the balances/what a big hit can do etc etc

As I've said, I think advanced numbers can give us a better idea of some of the nuances that aren't easily identifiable. And using jake Gardiner as evidence that he's more than what many think is a relevant point in these terms. But the game is played on the ice. Not throug numbers alone. And those numbers don't change that he's not in Drew doughtys class. Or really even near it

And wouldn't it be just as easy to say doughty is a top pick and won at every level because he's that good and been a massive part of said success.
You say it's easy to overrate him because of this, but that's like suggesting they won despite him. He's just happened to be lucky to be a part of it. Well that's certainly far from fact imo

Wow, once Lombardi reads this I'm 100% positive that he'll trade Doughty for Gardiner. Gardiner is "obviously" just as good and think of the cap savings for the Kings!!!!
Speaking for fans of every other Pacific division team we would LOVE for this trade to happen!

gone back to ole faithful for hits eh?

just stop.
- Isles_since_6

Just stop has become one of the worst cliches there is. Like "just saying" only worse.

I will never stop. You may notice the difference between us is I backed up my views with facts and evidence while you attempted to be condescending without reading it. If you read it, you'd see some amusing irony in your post.

We've been through this. Because the game isn't played on paper. And can't just be quantified through numbers. It's fluid and ever changing. One can't quantify small decisions/how a player can change opppsition strategy/ how negating a certain scheme can tip the balances/what a big hit can do etc etc

As I've said, I think advanced numbers can give us a better idea of some of the nuances that aren't easily identifiable. But the game is played on the ice. Not throug numbers alone.

And wouldn't it be just as easy to say doughty is a top pick and won at every level because he's that good and been a massive part of said success.
You say it's easy to overrate him because of this, but that's like suggesting they won despite him. He's just happened to be lucky to be a part of it. Well that's certainly far from fact imo
- HB77

Tanner is like everyone's buddy that just has to be contrary to the group opinion.

Tanner is like everyone's buddy that just has to be contrary to the group opinion.
- NEONDOUBLEDION

No, he believes it.

I ain't bashing him. And I've even come around on a few things . But the very fundamental side of this debate is probably something we'll never see eye to eye on

This is a good article. The most important point is that stats allow for more discussion, and discussion of points that we can't have without stats. Stats CAN lead to wrong conclusions, but they are important to the conversation, just as the eye test is. Dismissing relevant information for whatever reason is ridiculous.
- SolidGoldBricks

Agreed