Schlub is just me attempting to be humorous. But I disagree. Holmgren was a bad General Manager overall.
- PLindbergh31

not our beloved president

Some people would rather judge how it turned out as opposed to how it looked at the time.
- jmatchett383

Both times the trade looks great. The Flyers do not get within 2 wins of the cup with Luca Sbisa nailing down the top pairing. Seriously they got Chris Pronger for a bunch of nothing (palmeiri is good)

Trade G!

*Closes door and hides in closet

I respect Homer for always trying to put together a team that could win, his main flaw was not focusing on the salary cap and what it could do to the future. The Pronger injury was a real kick in the boys, no doubt, but we are very lucky Hextall was able to make some magic happen and get the salary cap back to a manageable situation. Can't blame Homer for going for it all, but his panic moves with MacDonald and Vinny didn't need to happen.
- Tomfan365

I think Homer's biggest failing is that he failed to see the trend of building teams through the draft and the organizational pipeline.

Or rather, if he saw it, he chose to ignore it.

On the whole, though, I think Homer did some good things. The AMac and Vinny signings standout as mistakes. The JvR for LSchenn trade is probably the marquee deal he got schooled on.

But otherwise, it's important to remember he inherited a mess and did manage to make things better and improve them. Maybe not enough improvement, but improvement nonetheless.

Some people would rather judge how it turned out as opposed to how it looked at the time.
- jmatchett383

that is stupid since you could never know how it will pan out when you make the decision

He was okay as a #5 defenseman. It was a steep price to pay, though, at the time.
- jmatchett383

# 5 d-man? When, his final year?

His first year he was an all-star, won the barry ashbee (again the following year i believe) and was 16th in Norris trophy voting.

32 points a +30 and averaging over 21 minutes a night.

You see that behind the back assist he had to Gaborik last night?

First time I ever saw him actually complete that pass.
- johndewar

lol no, but I'll go look for it

One positive was the beautiful play by Belle on the PK stomp kicking the puck out of the zone. Not a highlight play by the typical goals and/or violence standards but one by my book.

One positive was the beautiful play by Belle on the PK stomp kicking the puck out of the zone. Not a highlight play by the typical goals and/or violence standards but one by my book.
- coffee junkie

Yea it was a sweet little soccer style skill kick.

I think Homer's biggest failing is that he failed to see the trend of building teams through the draft and the organizational pipeline.

Or rather, if he saw it, he chose to ignore it.
- johndewar

I don't think he ignored it. I think he, and many other GMs, didn't understand how tough it would be to manage in the cap world.

I've discovered my losing record is solely to blame on my older brother. He made a valid point last night saying the last 10 philly sports events we've attended together have all been losses
- arichardson22

We had too much bad Karma in the building last night.

I think Homer's biggest failing is that he failed to see the trend of building teams through the draft and the organizational pipeline.

Or rather, if he saw it, he chose to ignore it.

On the whole, though, I think Homer did some good things. The AMac and Vinny signings standout as mistakes. The JvR for LSchenn trade is probably the marquee deal he got schooled on.

But otherwise, it's important to remember he inherited a mess and did manage to make things better and improve them. Maybe not enough improvement, but improvement nonetheless.
- johndewar

His mess was nothing of the sort that Hexy has on his plate. Holmer had basically a clean slate. A bunch of expiring deals and movable parts with a solid core of cheap youngsters ready to come in and contribute. He did a good job of going out and getting hartnell, Briere, and timonen. But he was never hamstrung

I was impressed with how Manning manhandled Maroon.
- PLindbergh31

# 5 d-man? When, his final year?

His first year he was an all-star, won the barry ashbee (again the following year i believe) and was 16th in Norris trophy voting.

32 points a +30 and averaging over 21 minutes a night.
- jak521

Mez never seemed to get back on the track with his injuries. Was a shame. He had nice offensive game and could dangle at times. I liked him and he had a sharp decline.

# 5 d-man? When, his final year?

His first year he was an all-star, won the barry ashbee (again the following year i believe) and was 16th in Norris trophy voting.

32 points a +30 and averaging over 21 minutes a night.
- jak521

Meszaros was an All-Star? When was this?

The problems were:

1) He was coming off of 2 straight bad years with TB. However it turned out, his value at the time didn't warrant a second round pick.

2) He was given a lot of favorable matchups and played behind Pronger/Carle and Coburn/Timonen...so yes, he was their #5 defenseman.

Not a horrific blunder like the Eminger trade, but it was an overpayment at the time of the trade, which is how you need to judge it.

I don't know. How hard is it really to make a lot of those moves that he did with a stack of blank checks and no worries about a long term vision. How hard is it to call Anaheim and ask them how many firsts they need for Pronger. How hard is it to call briere's agent and tell him hey just tell him to fly in and he's got 70 million for 8 years or whatever. Even the stroke of genious you alluded to was just undoing his own mistakes. Thank god the flyers were gifted buyouts

Coburn for zhitnik puts him one rung above mibury.
- Just5

How hard is it to post a thought with any semblance of intelligence?

I dont think the Meszy move was bad at all.. Meszy was one of our better d-men for a couple of seasons.
- jak521

I agree

Meszaros was an All-Star? When was this?

The problems were:

1) He was coming off of 2 straight bad years with TB. However it turned out, his value at the time didn't warrant a second round pick.

2) He was given a lot of favorable matchups and played behind Pronger/Carle and Coburn/Timonen...so yes, he was their #5 defenseman.

Not a horrific blunder like the Eminger trade, but it was an overpayment at the time of the trade, which is how you need to judge it.
- jmatchett383

I disagree with you.. they gave up a second rounder for a guy who had 3 very good years with Ott, and struggled to find his niche in TB. He came in and averaged 21 minutes a night his first year, and made it to the all-star game.

Pronger got injured the same year and only played 13 games.

EDIT: Looks like I got my years messed up.. and Meszy didnt make the all-star game, but was the 15th highest vote getter among all NHL d-men. Read both of those wrong.

Either way, he was a very solid player until his back injury

His mess was nothing of the sort that Hexy has on his plate. Holmer had basically a clean slate. A bunch of expiring deals and movable parts with a solid core of cheap youngsters ready to come in and contribute. He did a good job of going out and getting hartnell, Briere, and timonen. But he was never hamstrung
- Just5

You are comparing how two different guys handled the team at two separate times. Hextall was put in this position where he HAD to work out of cap trouble. Holmgren has made a couple of good picks it looks like. I dont think their situations show that either of them couldnt do what the other did. Hextall does appear to have a better idea on contracts though.

And to your earlier post...gifted buyouts arent necessary unless the cap crashes down like it did

I disagree with you.. they gave up a second rounder for a guy who had 3 very good years with Ott, and struggled to find his niche in TB. He came in and averaged 21 minutes a night his first year, and made it to the all-star game.

Pronger got injured the same year and only played 13 games.
- jak521

No, Pronger got injured in 11/12. He only played 50 games in 10-11, but trailed Mez by only 7 points. So yes, he averaged 21 minutes, but those were favorable starts, and it still put him in 4th place ATOI (Coburn played 3 seconds less).

Also, when did Meszaros make the All Star team as a Flyer?

Edit: Don't get me wrong, I liked him his first 2 years. But when a guy has greatly regressed for 2 seasons, giving up a 2nd seems like a bad idea. It turned out just fine, but at the time, I didn't like it.

Scoob, I realize snipers don't fall from trees, bit it seems this team can never seem to find one. Konecny might be that player. With the # of D we have & teams always looking for D help @ deadline, they should be looking.

Scoob, I realize snipers don't fall from trees, bit it seems this team can never seem to find one. Konecny might be that player. With the # of D we have & teams always looking for D help @ deadline, they should be looking.
- cousjoe

They are looking for good defenders on favorable cap hits...cant say we have much of that

They are looking for good defenders on favorable cap hits...cant say we have much of that
- YuenglingJagr

Streit's deal can be favorable to teams looking for a PP QB that wil get second pair mintues.

Schultz also could be viewed as an option for teams looking at 2nd (reach)/3rd pair guys.

Medvedev is an enigma that some team might take a flyer on but not to sure it happens.

But mostly we would get picks for those guys and hope to turn them into a decent prospect.

List of notable trades made by Paul Holmgren:

The good:
- Forsberg to Nashville for Ryan Parent, Scottie Upshall, 2007 1st round pick , 2007 3rd round pick
- Zhitnik to Atlanta for Coburn
- Calder to Chicago for Kukkonen, 2007 3rd round pick
- 2007 2nd round pick to Buffalo for Martin Biron
- 2007 1st round pick to Nashville for Kimmo Timonen and Scott Hartnell
- Alexandre R. Picard and 2009 2nd round pick to TB for Prospal
- Umberger and 288 4th round pick to Columbus for 2008 1st round pick and 2008 3rd round pick
- Steve Downie, Steve Eminger, 2009 4th round pick to TB for Matt Carle and 2009 3rd round pick
- Ole-Kristian Tollefsen and 2011 5th round pick for Ville Leino
- Rights to Dan Hamhuis to Pittsburgh for 2011 3rd round pick
- Rob Bordson and Mike Richards to LA for Brayden Schenn, Wayne Simmonds, 2012 2nd round pick
- Jeff Carter to Columbus for Jakub Voracek, 2011 1st round pick, 2011 3rd round pick
- Kris Versteeg to Florida for 2012 3rd round pick and 2012 2nd round pick
- 2012 2nd round pick, 2013 3rd round pick to Dallas for Nicklas Grossmann
- Michael Leighton and 2015 3rd round pick for Steve Mason
- Andrei Meszaros to Boston for 2014 3rd round pick

The bad:
- 2008 1st round pick to Washington for Steve Eminger and 2008 3rd round pick
- Scottie Upshall and 2011 2nd round pick to Phoenix for Dan Carcillo
- 2012 2nd round pick to TB for Andrei Mesazros
- Simon Gagne to TB for Matt Walker and 2011 4th round pick
- 2011 1st round pick and 2011 3rd round pick to Toronto for Kris Versteeg
- Matt Clackson, 2011 3rd round pick, 2012 3rd round pick to Phoenix for rights to Ilya Bryzgalov
- Jon Kalinski, 2012 2nd round pick, 2013 4th round pick for Pavel Kubina
JVR to Toronto for Luke Schenn
- 2014 3rd round pick, 2015 2nd round pick, Matt Mangene to NYI for Andrew MacDonald

Debateable:
- Joni Pitkanen, Geoff Sanderson, 2009 3rd round pick to Edmonton for Joffrey Lupul and Jason Smith
- Joffrey Lupul, Luca Sbisa, 2009 1st round pick, 2010 1st round pick (#29-Emerson Etem) for Chris Pronger and Ryan Dingle
- Sergei Bobrovsky to Columbus for 2012 4th round pick, 2012 2nd round pick, 2013 4th round pick
- 2014 4th round pick and Shane Harper for the rights to Mark Streit

Some of his FA signings and extensions can be questioned, but some (Read, Briere, Betts, Lapierre, Bobrovsky, Jagr, Emery, Raffl) were pretty good, too.
- jmatchett383

The Dowd signing in 07/08 was pretty excellent, he shored up the 4th line and took a TON of important defensive zone faceoffs. When they didn't resign him for 08/09 the PK took a hit and they missed his faceoff presence, which wasn't corrected until Betts was signed.

This current line up is only a borderline playoff team when Couts and other key players are all healthy and the goalies are playing lights out.

When the goalie has an average to below average night they are toast. The goalie has to stop every makable save, and then also make some huge highlight reel saves for them to win. It isn't really sustainable. Take Couts out and they have no defensive stopper.

Take G or Jake out for any length of time and they would be toast also.

It is a piecemeal D core with everyone playing more minutes then they should. That is also the core reason the PK sucks.

The bottom six can be improved and that won't be that hard. I expect Hexy to fix this with smart free agent acquisitions this summer. One or two bottom 6 guys should be doable without breaking the cap. Maybe some forward prospects will be ready to fill in. But until they get a top franchise defenseman they aren't going anywhere. Hopefully Provorov in 3 years becomes that guy. He may make the team next year, but expecting him to be a franchise guy playing big minutes in all situations... well, 3 years if we are lucky.