As I have said before, I am very weary of Del Zotto, especially with how we run our speed game. He would have to play with 7 as the Hawks would definitely need a huge helper on his opposite side on defense.

We had this Swedish defenseman on the team recently that we just lost that would have been a great pairing should we end up acquiring Del Zotto..........
- purepone

Our new D coach likes him a lot though.

10, I would over pay for a Jenner. I love north-south fast guys who will knock you down, twice, before they score. CLB is full of those guys and honestly I'd rather watch that group hit on all cylinders and win than the Hawks win. It's just more fun seeing a group freakishly big, freakishly fast, nasty players run wild hitting everything in sight before they finish. Hair on fire physical hockey with a few skilled guys that can finish.

But that style alone just doesn't win cups no matter how fun to watch. You still need the elite finishers to end up being the difference or you won't win a cup. How many teams were gonna pound the Hawks into submission but the Hawk speed and skill won out. Same with the Pens............ In the end you just can't win without the speed and skill. Not saying the Jenner's and Bickell's can't fit into that but they can't be the primary focus.
- Mr Ricochet

That's why I loved the 2010 team - they could play anyway you wanted and they took the body...Buff/Brouwer/Versteeg/Bolland/Ladd

I'd like to see them going after Hartnell...especially to keep him off the Preds squad. Interesting to see what happens with the Hossa cap hit...loving all the whining by the other teams...don't they get it...we'd rather have Hossa playing for us. And as JJ mentions signed off by doctors/trainers etc...Bettman and his boys can take a frankin' hike on this...

Didn't want the Hawks to go for him to begin , but now I really really really really don't want them tomake him an offer. Nice slap at ananalytics too
- HamiltonHawk

FWIW, drafted one spot ahead of Carey Price and 7 spots ahead of Anzi Kopitar.

(And only 3 behind Sidney Crosby).

[quote=resqmed99] http://edmontonjournal.co...oilers-headed-for-buy-out

Thank you.......... Well the fancy staters take a beating on Puliot. A cursory look at normal stats showed his hits numbers down. Looks like a player that got paid and lost his hunger.

But no denying he has been useful and not too long ago. He'll get a look or two from cash strapped clubs.

FWIW, drafted one spot ahead of Carey Price and 7 spots ahead of Anzi Kopitar.

(And only 3 behind Sidney Crosby).
- RickJ

And 3 before the great Jack Skille!

@DarrenDreger
Justin Williams has trimmed his list down to 3-4 teams and Washington doesn't appear to be option any longer.

Not sure if he's got anything to offer us. Probably too pricey too.

Maybe the A's didn't win with Moneyball, but the league has moved that way anyway, with Theo Epstein leading the way.

@DarrenDreger
Justin Williams has trimmed his list down to 3-4 teams and Washington doesn't appear to be option any longer.

Not sure if he's got anything to offer us. Probably too pricey too.
- JRoenick97

The playoffs Superman.

I'd sign him. He's bought and add paid, could get him cheap? Think he could keep up with Kaner?
- Bjm84

Hartnell as a 3rd liner. If Schmaltz doesn't work at 2 LW Hartnell could fill in. Either way the compete and nasty level of any team goes up with a Hartnell in the lineup.

Maybe the A's didn't win with Moneyball, but the league has moved that way anyway, with Theo Epstein leading the way.
- CanOCorn

The league has moved that way, in fact it has been that way much longer than people realize. There were several teams doing "moneyball" analysis well before it was reported in the book about Bean and the A's.

Like I said previously, baseball lends itself to advanced stats much easier than a fluid game like hockey. Baseball is a rather stationary, event driven game. The ball is put in play (or not) from the same place every time. Hockey is completely the opposite of that.

@DarrenDreger
Justin Williams has trimmed his list down to 3-4 teams and Washington doesn't appear to be option any longer.

Not sure if he's got anything to offer us. Probably too pricey too.
- JRoenick97

I would stay away from guys like Bonino and Williams during free agency. That isn't a reflection on their ability, but during this time of year the cost would be took much. Just look at Backes and Brouwer last year, terrible deals.

If Stan is looking to sign a UFA my money would be on a low cost depth forward signin in a couple of weeks.

Hartnell as a 3rd liner. If Schmaltz doesn't work at 2 LW Hartnell could fill in. Either way the compete and nasty level of any team goes up with a Hartnell in the lineup.
- Mr Ricochet

When I was at all of the games I had a real close view. In the playoffs I've never seen a sneakier player than Hartnell. Couldn't believe all the stuff he got away with. Real veteran sneaky poop behind backs that he was penalized for 10% of the time at most and probably less. That intangible stuff can't be coached. All star snake in the grass type. So, naturally, I love him. But he is getting old for a forward.

Yeah Quicky we are and it is, but it is also one where we should all be conscious about not posting click-bait. Do you forward the posts on your facebook or email about Bill Gates giving out money because he's testing a new email program, or about a $75 Target/Best Buy/etc. coupon or any of the other spam/phishing/click-baits that circulate. My guess is you don't, or you take 15 seconds to research and realize it's nothing. If Bettman had levied fines against 10 teams, don't you think it would be on the NHL.com and other sites, or even have been posted here on the Buzz?
- TheTrob

That is why I was asking about it, because I hadn't seen it posted anywhere else, and was interested if it was true or not. I come here to get clarification on everything hockey related since we have some really knowledgeable people that post here. I posted later that I realize I was mistaken. I actually didn't post the article until someone asked what I was referring to, but I am sorry for not reading it closer.

Analytics can be hard because you can sometimes tailor them to any argument you are making for a player. I try to stay neutral in looking at them. I think L_B_R does a good job here too.
- JRoenick97

Right but still then the stats need context. But the pure analytics people think there are deeper and deeper stats that will provide that context. ........ I don't think a franchise can get by without analytics anymore but without good old fashion eye test and hockey sense too they are hollow IMO.

That is why I was asking about it, because I hadn't seen it posted anywhere else, and was interested if it was true or not. I come here to get clarification on everything hockey related since we have some really knowledgeable people that post here. I posted later that I realize I was mistaken. I actually didn't post the article until someone asked what I was referring to, but I am sorry for not reading it closer.
- ToewsdNKanefusd

No problem. It wasn't really meant as a shot at you, though in hindsight I can see why it may have come off that way.

One guy that seems intriguing as a depth forward is Alex Chiasson. It's a bit worrisome that he can't stick with a team for too long, but for around $700,000 he might be worth a shot.

L_B_R, I really appreciate your analysis and use of advanced stats. I think that you explain them well within the context of individual players, their effectiveness and impact. I think use of advanced stats plays a role, however, that being said, there is still something to be said about the good old eye test.

It's all a matter of how you use the advanced stats. I think for many of us, we may watch the games and players and form an opinion based on what we see, then use advanced stats to backup our arguments. At times, we may look at advanced stats and a player may "pop out" that we may not have even considered previously, but bears taking a second look. I tend to believe that the front offices, scouts, coaches, etc. more tend to fall in the first category. They believe their eyes first, and back it up with the stats. Doing it the other way around leads you to Tanner like Rundblad evaluations.

I think if you look at a Hartnell, your eye tells you he has declined significantly and unless you can get him for a mil or less where you can then bury him if necessary you stay away. Pouliot maybe you say it was an aberation and take a chance at a low cost. In either case I don't think they are the piece to the puzzle Stanley is looking for.
- TheTrob

There's always a balance between eye test and stats. And yes, stats can be skewed but the eye test has bias.

Rundblad is an example of looking at selective stats rather than all of them + context. As someone who likes stats, I can tell you that Rundblad was not good statistically except in a shelter, replacement level role. Maybe he could be a 3rd pair/#6 on a team with a system that played to his strength, but that's about it.

Eye test bias exists just as much, and they tend to skew to favoring players with playing style that are more "obvious" like being big/fast/gritty/whatever and often show up in surface stats like hits or blocked shots. Kris Russell and Marc Methot are good examples of this - neither are bad per say, but they get reps for being better than they are because they block shots or whatever.

So again, it's all about balance - see how much the stats and eye test match up, don't rely too heavily on either, etc etc. It's why I like the tracking projects so much because it's literally people watching games to break it down - we know that's similar to how teams/coaches/GMs/whoever have done it for years, they just used different terms / less equations. Stats don't make sense in a vacuum, and with a sport as full as variables as hockey, it's especially important to include view stats hand-in-hand with watching the games/players.

When I was at all of the games I had a real close view. In the playoffs I've never seen a sneakier player than Hartnell. Couldn't believe all the stuff he got away with. Real veteran sneaky poop behind backs that he was penalized for 10% of the time at most and probably less. That intangible stuff can't be coached. All star snake in the grass type. So, naturally, I love him. But he is getting old for a forward.
- 6628

Oh yea, then add Dubinsky to that and Foligno too to an extent. Just a damn nasty group. As you mention a veteran too who knows all the damn tricks, all of them. ......... Maybe he ain't a bottom 6 fit but the Hawks gotta scrub that up and down as a franchise. ........ Are you in Columbus?

I would stay away from guys like Bonino and Williams during free agency. That isn't a reflection on their ability, but during this time of year the cost would be took much. Just look at Backes and Brouwer last year, terrible deals.

If Stan is looking to sign a UFA my money would be on a low cost depth forward signin in a couple of weeks.
- DarthKane

JJ has been hinting at it for a while that Bowman is going for "under the radar" guys. The types of players who would be quite steals--real cost-controlled.

He also suggested that a lot hinges on the leagues ruling of Hossa's LTIR. Once that's settled, I'd imagine the moves will come.

I would stay away from guys like Bonino and Williams during free agency. That isn't a reflection on their ability, but during this time of year the cost would be took much. Just look at Backes and Brouwer last year, terrible deals.

If Stan is looking to sign a UFA my money would be on a low cost depth forward signin in a couple of weeks.
- DarthKane

Very good point. Both are nice players, but it does seem like F/A frenzy boosts these type of players into another pay bracket they otherwise should not be in. As you state, the Hawks should pass and look for those under the radar moves.

NHLSourcesSay‏ @NHLSourcesSay 9m9 minutes ago
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Sam Gagner leaning towards signing with #Blackhawks, great fit + chance to win.

No problem. It wasn't really meant as a shot at you, though in hindsight I can see why it may have come off that way.
- TheTrob

NHLSourcesSay‏ @NHLSourcesSay 9m9 minutes ago
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Sam Gagner leaning towards signing with #Blackhawks, great fit + chance to win.
- KMFDMLight

I think that's how the Hawks have to sell it to some of these FA in order to keep the cost down a bit.

"Hey, we want you on the team, but you know our money situation. But, if you'll take a little less money, you know you could have a pretty good chance to win the cup..."

I would stay away from guys like Bonino and Williams during free agency. That isn't a reflection on their ability, but during this time of year the cost would be took much. Just look at Backes and Brouwer last year, terrible deals.

If Stan is looking to sign a UFA my money would be on a low cost depth forward signin in a couple of weeks.
- DarthKane

Indeed, and that's the concern about a Hartnell and I'm in the Hartnell camp. The term, cap hit and where the player is slotted (see Gagner last year) have to be right.

I'm with you Darth. If you're gonna make a mistake don't do it with oldish, slowish vets with term or cap hit do it with what is in house or a vet on a one year deal. Easier to cut those mistakes loose.

I agree with you on both points.

The other thing that gets lost in translation with the numbers game is all the stuff that isn't recorded on the stats sheet.

Sure, player X doesn't might not hit certain numbers, but all those times he went into the hard spots and came out with the puck or took a hit to make a play, don't get recorded on a piece of paper. So the stats are certainly not the end-all-be-all.

It's interesting how they're starting to really dominate pro sports--especially if you look at baseball.
- Hank3Henshaw

Those things are actually covered in stats - they just aren't readily available to be scrapped into a neat, easy to represent number immediately. There are two tracking projects run by fans at the moment that do look at things like board battles or hit/recover plays or passing types/style and that data is release slowly over the span of a season. There used to be more but the people who started them then got hired by NHL teams.

There is also Sportlogiq where you can pay for there player tracking data. NHL uses SAP, which does this a little, but none of that data is released.