Plainly stated, this team just isn't a very skilled team.

Apart from Provy and Ghost, the defense cannot make consistent crisp breakout passes, or if they do, apart from the first line, the forwards cannot accept the pass. This lack of skill makes them look 'flat', but in my view it's about not being skilled enough.

The younger players haven't yet developed to the speed of the NHL. You can see the potential in flashes from the youth in the lineup, but they are not consistent. They make these mistakes because they don't play enough to get used to the speed. Again, it makes them look 'flat'. The coach then says, you can't play at this level yet, so you aren't getting time. I don't agree with it, but I understand why Patrick gets the treatment he does.

The veterans on this team add very little as well. Guys like Weise and McDonald are being asked to contribute too much, which is exposing them, making them look bad, again making the team look 'flat'.

I think a lot of people looked at TOR last season and said, no reason we can't do that. But not every team has a Matthews, Marner, Nylander. Those player all possess elite skill levels.

The good news: The younger players are going thru growing pains required to become NHL regulars. They will be better off for it next season. Being one of the younger teams in the NHL, this type of season isn't really unexpected.
- VladDrag

Very well put. A good playoff team can get away with 1...and really just 1 player like a weise, a filpulla, Leier, amac, etc. there’s just way to many fringe nhlers on this roster

True.

I think the guy they miss most of all is Timonen. He wasn't the most outspoken guy, but he was universally respected and when he did have something to say, they shut up and listened.

Kimmo has basically been gone since the start of the 14-15 season and lets look at the results since:

14-15 missed the playoffs; fired Berube, hired Hakstol

15-16 squeaked in as the 8th seed, played their hearts out trying to get in for a dying Ed Snider, sadly, we haven't seen that kind of heart or emotion from this team since.

16-17 missed the playoffs

17-18 are probably going to miss the playoffs

18-19 ???

The jury is still out on Ron Hextall, and rightfully so. On paper, his drafts look great, but until more of his picks come in and become impact players, you just can't really judge him yet. His hand picked head coach has been so-so at best and he's not done a particularly good job at signing free agents. He's done a good job of moving bad contracts, and we'll see in a few years if the Schenn trade pans out.

I will say this much though. If this team misses the playoffs this year and next, Hextall's job needs to be dependent on not just getting in, but being a team that can legitimately win a round or 2 by 19-20. Most of us have been pretty patient so far, but there has to be a limit to that patience.
- BiggE

Pronger Timmonen hartnell briere. Even to lesser extents guys like coburn are missed. Richards Carter were secondary leaders guys who went out and scored when we were down they weren't locker room vocal type leaders. Giroux and Jake are better suited in the secondary role. Trading away vets is good but completely trading them all would be scary to see what this team becomes. Vegas saw the value in having a strong locker room veteran presence which is why they took bellemare over other more talented players.

Pronger Timmonen hartnell briere. Even to lesser extents guys like coburn are missed. Richards Carter were secondary leaders guys who went out and scored when we were down they weren't locker room vocal type leaders. Giroux and Jake are better suited in the secondary role. Trading away vets is good but completely trading them all would be scary to see what this team becomes. Vegas saw the value in having a strong locker room veteran presence which is why they took bellemare over other more talented players.
- Tfaehner

It's really hard to say. On one hand I agree with you, on the other I look at guys like Jake, Simmonds and Giroux, all who've been NHL regulars since 2008, and I have to ask myself why can't they do a better job of leading this team and getting their teammates ready to play hard from the opening whistle?

Fans keep wanting Hakstol to paint a Rembrandt with water color paints. I have no problem putting a big body to crash the net and work the corners on the 2nd PP unit. It's not as if they've been lighting it up.. Although I would personally choose Raffl over Weise.
- MJL

Only you would defend Weise on the PP. The big body that doesn't play big. Not as if they've been lighting it up? With that logic let's throw John Scott in there. FFS there's no defending your hill, Marines have taken over, planted the flag, and are already drilling for oil.

They are an irrevelvent NHL team for a while now.
Been at best middle of the pack for many years now. But hey saint Ronnie has a plan. 5-7 year rebuild plan. So sit back and enjoy. Wonder what the plan is if the prospects don't pan out.

Same core same issues. Roster is lacking talent.
- rinaldo

Hextall did change the core somewhat by moving out Schenn....but was that the right part of core to move ? That I don’t know. Can’t argue with talent argument. I still enjoy watching for the most part, but I liked this team better when they had an identity.

The number # 2 picks of the previous two years were Eichel and Laine. Patrick is tied with Rinaldo 2 goals.
- PLindbergh31

And Joe Thornton had three goals and seven points in 55 games his NHL rookie season after being the first overall pick in the draft.

And Vinny Lecavalier was 50th in ice time among NHL rookies and went five weeks without a goal at one point on his way to 13 goals and 28 points after being the first overall pick in the draft and being declared by his team's owner "the Michael Jordan of hockey."

So maybe, just maybe, we shouldn't judge based on a rookie season for a teenaged player, much a bit less than half of one.

Hextall did change the core somewhat by moving out Schenn....but was that the right part of core to move ? That I don’t know. Can’t argue with talent argument. I still enjoy watching for the most part, but I liked this team better when they had an identity.
- landros 2

When it comes to the core leadership, to me it's Giroux, Voracek and Simmonds with maybe Couturier based on his recent play, entering the mix. I don't think that Brayden Schenn was looked at as a team leader last year, though he may have been moving in that direction.

At the end of the day, when it comes to team leadership, it's on the 4 guys I mentioned along with the 2 guys (AMac and Filppula) who teammates voted in as alternate captains. So far, they aren't doing a very good job. I'm sorry, but there is more to being a team leader then sitting around and having a few beers with the boys.

And Joe Thornton had three goals and seven points in 55 games his NHL rookie season after being the first overall pick in the draft.

And Vinny Lecavalier was 50th in ice time among NHL rookies and went five weeks without a goal at one point on his way to 13 goals and 28 points after being the first overall pick in the draft and being declared by his team's owner "the Michael Jordan of hockey."

So maybe, just maybe, we shouldn't judge based on a rookie season for a teenaged player, much a bit less than half of one.
- bmeltzer

Anyone casting judgement on Nolan Patrick, at age 19, coming off 2 off season surgeries and an early season concussion is either an idiot or a troll.

And Joe Thornton had three goals and seven points in 55 games his NHL rookie season after being the first overall pick in the draft.

And Vinny Lecavalier was 50th in ice time among NHL rookies and went five weeks without a goal at one point on his way to 13 goals and 28 points after being the first overall pick in the draft and being declared by his team's owner "the Michael Jordan of hockey."

So maybe, just maybe, we shouldn't judge based on a rookie season for a teenaged player, much a bit less than half of one.
- bmeltzer

I remember the Thornton season and it was the same thing....he really didn’t do much and was invisible most nights...but the league on a whole was an older league and there were fewer young rookies making impacts....I think he’ll figure it out, but I admit I expected more.

The number # 2 picks of the previous two years were Eichel and Laine. Patrick is tied with Rinaldo 2 goals.
- PLindbergh31

really not a fair comment. yes the Flyers haven't been lucky enough to be in that #2 slot when there were elite players but you going to blame the team for that? as far as Patrick goes, considering his circumstances seeing him struggle at times isn't a shock. Maybe the kid should have played this year in juniors while his body gets back to being 100% healthy or maybe not but all in its so premature to be down on him already. amazes me how people expect kids to all be finished products as soon as they hit the NHL, esp 18-20 year olds. guess what, more rookies struggle or have uneven seasons than not.

Anyone casting judgement on Nolan Patrick, at age 19, coming off 2 off season surgeries and an early season concussion is either an idiot or a troll.
- BiggE

I don’t think it’s fair to ever judge a 19 year old, but perhaps in hindsight (easy for me to say lol) he should have gone back to junior.

Edit: there is still 1/2 a season to go...so we will see.

Hextall did change the core somewhat by moving out Schenn....but was that the right part of core to move ? That I don’t know. Can’t argue with talent argument. I still enjoy watching for the most part, but I liked this team better when they had an identity.
- landros 2

I think you can argue that the team hasn't had an identity for some time.

Hakstol, I think, wants them to be a certain kind of team (uptempo, aggressive forechecking), but they aren't good enough to do that.

Barring a late season run, where the team sees growth from Konecny, Patrick, and Sanheim, this team is gonna be right back in the lottery.

It's really hard to say. On one hand I agree with you, on the other I look at guys like Jake, Simmonds and Giroux, all who've been NHL regulars since 2008, and I have to ask myself why can't they do a better job of leading this team and getting their teammates ready to play hard from the opening whistle?
- BiggE

I'm not saying they don't have to be better but I just think it's a lot to ask of them and I don't necessarily think it's fair. The best teams have multiple leaders. Let's look at the veterans hexy has put together to lead us beyond the top 4 MacDonald Weise gudas manning raffl filpula lehtera. Any of these scream respect, leadership, incredible work ethic, resiliency, etc.

I don’t think it’s fair to ever judge a 19 year old, but perhaps in hindsight (easy for me to say lol) he should have gone back to junior.
- landros 2

I didn't understand why provorov had to be sent back but Patrick was a shoo in for the nhl. Juniors could of been effective for him to get healthy. But now that he's here I don't see the sense in sending him back down

Anyone casting judgement on Nolan Patrick, at age 19, coming off 2 off season surgeries and an early season concussion is either an idiot or a troll.
- BiggE

Eh, certain areas of his play are definitely comment-worthy though.

I’d agree. I’d just say that over the balance of hakstols coaching period the consistent effort is generally there. A hell of a lot more even in my opinion than a lava coached Pronger led flyers team.

They just have a very poor roster and that to me is the #1 issue.

Are we firing hak for being the bubble team we all expected them to be?
- Just5

Bubble team? Maybe they was that when Ghost played them in to the PO.Last season 7 points out now 6 points behind before the rags and devils series

I didn't understand why provorov had to be sent back but Patrick was a shoo in for the nhl. Juniors could of been effective for him to get healthy. But now that he's here I don't see the sense in sending him back down
- Tfaehner

That’s what I meant....now that he’s here....it should be for good. I wouldn’t see a reason to do it now. I think that might further stagnate his development.

Pronger Timmonen hartnell briere. Even to lesser extents guys like coburn are missed. Richards Carter were secondary leaders guys who went out and scored when we were down they weren't locker room vocal type leaders. Giroux and Jake are better suited in the secondary role. Trading away vets is good but completely trading them all would be scary to see what this team becomes. Vegas saw the value in having a strong locker room veteran presence which is why they took bellemare over other more talented players.
- Tfaehner

that 2010 team had top veteran players as well as good young players like Carter, Richards and Giroux. and Carter and Richards were like, what, 25? not 19-21. the

I for one am not advocating trading away everyone and veterans are needed but I can do without the Filppula types moving forward. He served his purpose while the team transitions but the reality is he isn't a #2 center on a top playoff team. Simmonds is more about his contract situation.

this team has Giroux, Jake and Simmonds as the "veterans" and Couturier is that younger veteran which is a solid start but the kids haven't gotten there yet and there really is a larger gap between the veterans and kids.

the defense is WAY WAY younger than 2010 and we are in the position to just having to deal with it while those kids improve. in no way do I want to see a young player sit for a veteran.

Looking at their contracts and the remaining term, I just can't see anyone making a good enough offer to make a deal worth it for the Flyers.
- BiggE

Leatherman is defiantly a DEAD body making almost 6 mill with a horrible production.

I'm not saying they don't have to be better but I just think it's a lot to ask of them and I don't necessarily think it's fair. The best teams have multiple leaders. Let's look at the veterans hexy has put together to lead us beyond the top 4 MacDonald Weise gudas manning raffl filpula lehtera. Any of these scream respect, leadership, incredible work ethic, resiliency, etc.
- Tfaehner

Yeah and I mentioned AMac and Filppula as guys that need to step up behind the scenes. Whether we like them or not, their teammates voted those letters on their sweaters.

Between those 2, Jake, G, Coots and Simmonds, you have 6 of the 18 skaters on this team. If you need more than 1/3 of the team to be leaders, your team is already sunk.

Yeah and I mentioned AMac and Filppula as guys that need to step up behind the scenes. Whether we like them or not, their teammates voted those letters on their sweaters.

Between those 2, Jake, G, Coots and Simmonds, you have 6 of the 18 skaters on this team. If you need more than 1/3 of the team to be leaders, your team is already sunk.
- BiggE

That's on hexy though. He chose his veterans.

That's on hexy though. He chose his veterans.
- Tfaehner

Well, he chose Filppula. The rest were here when he took the job, but yeah, I get what you're saying.

I'm not sure what the answer is. The mid 80s teams were young as hell up front but had vets like Howe and Marsh and a great captain in Dave Poulin to give them the leadership they needed. They also had a head coach who was smart, innovative and who the young players were terrified of, LOL.

Now I don't think that the mid 80s Mike Keenan could succeed with today's players. OTOH, I do think that if Hextall is willing to make a change after this year, he can find a better head coach than Dave Hakstol.

that 2010 team had top veteran players as well as good young players like Carter, Richards and Giroux. and Carter and Richards were like, what, 25? not 19-21. the

I for one am not advocating trading away everyone and veterans are needed but I can do without the Filppula types moving forward. He served his purpose while the team transitions but the reality is he isn't a #2 center on a top playoff team. Simmonds is more about his contract situation.

this team has Giroux, Jake and Simmonds as the "veterans" and Couturier is that younger veteran which is a solid start but the kids haven't gotten there yet and there really is a larger gap between the veterans and kids.

the defense is WAY WAY younger than 2010 and we are in the position to just having to deal with it while those kids improve. in no way do I want to see a young player sit for a veteran.
- nastyflyergirl

My point definitely wasn't to bench kids for vets it's just we didn't exactly surround our kids with good veterans on and off the ice to develop under. I think an improvement in veterans would help. Toronto went and got a veteran top 6 forward and 2 guys on the back end.

Well, he chose Filppula. The rest were here when he took the job, but yeah, I get what you're saying.

I'm not sure what the answer is. The mid 80s teams were young as hell up front but had vets like Howe and Marsh and a great captain in Dave Poulin to give them the leadership they needed. They also had a head coach who was smart, innovative and who the young players were terrified of, LOL.

Now I don't think that the mid 80s Mike Keenan could succeed with today's players. OTOH, I do think that if Hextall is willing to make a change after this year, he can find a better head coach than Dave Hakstol.
- BiggE

I don't think it's hard to find a better coach than hasktol. I do however think it's hard to find a coach that will make this team a playoff team.

My point definitely wasn't to bench kids for vets it's just we didn't exactly surround our kids with good veterans on and off the ice to develop under. I think an improvement in veterans would help. Toronto went and got a veteran top 6 forward and 2 guys on the back end.
- Tfaehner

oh i know, i just started with a thought then just kept going