I wouldn't put him up their was Roy, Brodeur, or Hasek. I'm not so sure he will even be considered top 20.

He was never considered the best goalie in the league during his era. I'd consider Lundqvist, Miller, Pekka, and Luongo all better than him, at their peaks. Could argue price but he is getting quite a bit younger.

Was never higher than 4th in the Vezina.

Never carried a really bad team and was woefully inconsistent.

With that, 3 cup rings and what he did the first year in Vegas will probably put him in the HoF. I could easily see a similar argument against him that people have against Osgood. He at least won the Jennings trophy a couple of times where MAF has no personal hardware.

Eklund: Marc Andre Fleury Fastest to 450 Wins. One of the best ever?
- Eklund

post lockout era perhaps , best ever for me is Roy and Brodeur.

It is silly to try to compare absolute stats across very different stylistic eras of hockey.

Everyone here brings up ties vs shoot out wins but go look at how many games goalies started back in the day. 75+ starts a year was the norm. Almost nobody does that anymore with better goalie depth and the sheer athleticism needed to play the position.

Save % and GAA can be heavily shaped by team philosophy. Penguins were never going to lead the league in GAA. They were made to cheat up ice, score goals, and have a goalie stop 3-4 breakaways a game (that is why he is great in the shootout as well).

Show me all those more consistent goalies that have 4 Stanley Cup appearances and 3 rings. Fleury makes huge saves when they are needed to get wins. That is why he is an all-time great.

His playoff runs have been great, but I've never considered him one of the best ever. In my life (39) I've seen the following who are all, undoubtedly, better than MAF:

1. Pat Roy - best ever
2. Dom Hasek - 2nd best ever
3. Marty Brodeur

And I've seen two others who are probably better than MAF:

Hank Lundqvist
Roberto Luongo

That said, MAF is a HoFer to me. His playoff greatness means a lot to me. I suppose he ends up as a top 20 goalie to ever play. Depending on your grading curve that could be one of the best ever.

post lockout era perhaps , best ever for me is Roy and Brodeur.
- Alexzanki

HaseK had a higher top level than this guys. Brodeurs numbers plummeted after the redline was gone.

If that's the criteria, then Chris Osgood has a legit shot at the HHOF.
- jmatchett383

^^^^^^^

Beat me to it.

^^^^^^^

Beat me to it.
- John Jaeckel

post more

post lockout era perhaps , best ever for me is Roy and Brodeur.
- Alexzanki

For some reason I've never though of Brodeur as that great. But, I think that might just be bias based on how the penguins played against him. Same with Lundquist. Neither goalie ever had me worried going into a game.

Flower is definitely not one of the best of all time, and to be honest, neither is Brodeur. Brodeur is the single most overrated goalie in the history of the NHL.

Definitely a HoF goalie.

The most inconsistent aspect of the Pens teams from 2003 (don't forget that his stats include a few of the "bad" years) to 2017 is their defense, not their goaltending. They very rarely had a defense that could completely stonewall someone. Moreover, the team has always had an offense-first mentality. This means that MAF frequently faced lots of shots and lots of high-quality shots, including odd-man breaks and breakaways. Even during the Cup runs the defense was always the weakest aspects of the teams.

Just as a thought exercise, if MAF and Brodeur were to swap careers, does Broudeur put up the same career numbers behind the many porous Pens' defenses over the years? How do you think MAF would would have fared behind NJ's often almost impenetrable defense, where opposing teams were often lucky to even get off a good shot?

MAF's only weakness was his puck handling. That shouldn't keep him out of the HoF, though.

MAF might be the best ever. It's apparently debatable.

Freddie Anderson isn't a starter. So he's #32 at best among current goalies.

I know goalies.

Hell no. Propped up by one of those most stacked teams of the decade. He also cost the Pens the cups in several playoffs years

I Guess he is in If Billy Smith can get in!

NO, MAF is NOT "one of the best ever".. He's played a ton of games for contending teams his entire career -- every night he's had an opportunity to win.. He's a very good goalie that played on very good teams but he's not "great" and certainly not even in my top 20 all-time...

When someone says "one of the best ever" I think Hasek, Roy, Parent, Sawchuk, Tretiak, Brodeur, Belfour, Plante, Esposito, Hall etc..... Luongo?? I would put Luongo right below these guys and above the guys below..

I'm going to put MAF in the same category as perhaps an Osgood, Vachon, Joseph, Vernon, Barrasso.... MAF is an all-time "Tier II" goalie (above average starter), while the former are "Tier I" goalies (ATG shoe-in HOF'ers).

And I'm not trying to knock MAF but he is what he is - an above average goalie that can be relied on to take contenders deep in the playoffs.... MAF has had his moments but you really cant say he was the reason why his teams wen't deep... With guys like Roy and Hasek you can....

It's 2007 would you rather have MAF or Broduer, Thomas, Giguire, Luongo, Bryzgalov?

It's 2010 would you rather have MAF or Rinne, Lunqvist, Price, Luongo or Thomas?

It's 2014 would you rather have MAF or Rask, Price, Varlamov, Bobrovsky, Miller?

It's right now MAF or Price, Holtby, Vasilevskiy, Bob?

MAF isn't even one the best 10 goalies we've seen this decade.

Definitely a HoF goalie.

The most inconsistent aspect of the Pens teams from 2003 (don't forget that his stats include a few of the "bad" years) to 2017 is their defense, not their goaltending. They very rarely had a defense that could completely stonewall someone. Moreover, the team has always had an offense-first mentality. This means that MAF frequently faced lots of shots and lots of high-quality shots, including odd-man breaks and breakaways. Even during the Cup runs the defense was always the weakest aspects of the teams.

Just as a thought exercise, if MAF and Brodeur were to swap careers, does Broudeur put up the same career numbers behind the many porous Pens' defenses over the years? How do you think MAF would would have fared behind NJ's often almost impenetrable defense, where opposing teams were often lucky to even get off a good shot?

MAF's only weakness was his puck handling. That shouldn't keep him out of the HoF, though.
- PghPens668771

He probably will er eventually get into the HOF....

His win-loss record is fantastic but all of his other numbers aren't too impressive when you match him up against other HOF goalies....

MAF has NO personal hardware, his GAA is 2.56 (not great), his save percentage is .913 - again not great....

The only factors MAF has working in his favor right now for HOF consideration are his wins, his winning percentage and his 3 Cups and another trip to the final..

The fact he doesn't have any personal awards (he's not come close) will really work against him....

Anyway...... I wouldn't call him a "shoe in" by any means..

Nah. Nice guy though

Yes

Flower is definitely not one of the best of all time, and to be honest, neither is Brodeur. Brodeur is the single most overrated goalie in the history of the NHL.
- Phineas

Typically if you have the most wins by a large margin, most shut outs, multiple Jennings, Conn Smyth's well you must have been pretty damn good and pretty sure every hockey analyst will disagree with you

If you look at his last couple years sure he wasn't great but throughout his career he has shown to be top 3 of all time

He was also a main contributor for the trapazoid

It is silly to try to compare absolute stats across very different stylistic eras of hockey.

Everyone here brings up ties vs shoot out wins but go look at how many games goalies started back in the day. 75+ starts a year was the norm. Almost nobody does that anymore with better goalie depth and the sheer athleticism needed to play the position.

Save % and GAA can be heavily shaped by team philosophy. Penguins were never going to lead the league in GAA. They were made to cheat up ice, score goals, and have a goalie stop 3-4 breakaways a game (that is why he is great in the shootout as well).

Show me all those more consistent goalies that have 4 Stanley Cup appearances and 3 rings. Fleury makes huge saves when they are needed to get wins. That is why he is an all-time great.
- Hockeywiener

The only goalies that I recall (off the top of my head) that EVER got 75+ starts a year were Grant Fuhr and Martin Brodeur... Yea, back in the day you had guys like Glenn Hall that made every start but there were only 60 games in a season...

Oh BTW, to answer the bold: Chris Osgood, Grant Fuhr, Ken Dryden, Billy Smith, Patrick Roy, Martin Brodeur.......

Look, Chris Osgood IS NOT in the HOF and I could EASILY argue that MAF is no better than Chris Osgood...

Chris Osgood:
- 3 Cups
- 4 Finals Appearances
- 2nd Team All Star
- 2 Jennings Trophies
- 2.49 career GAA
- .905 SV%
- 50 Shutouts
- Runner up to the Vezina in 1995-96
- 401-216 Win-Loss record

Ozzy isn't in the HOF..

Typically if you have the most wins by a large margin, most shut outs, multiple Jennings, Conn Smyth's well you must have been pretty damn good and pretty sure every hockey analyst will disagree with you

If you look at his last couple years sure he wasn't great but throughout his career he has shown to be top 3 of all time

He was also a main contributor for the trapazoid
- dmarsden2988

Google Brodeur overrated and you will find you are not correct on that Good Sir.

The only goalies that I recall (off the top of my head) that EVER got 75+ starts a year were Grant Fuhr and Martin Brodeur... Yea, back in the day you had guys like Glenn Hall that made every start but there were only 60 games in a season...

Oh BTW, to answer the bold: Chris Osgood, Grant Fuhr, Ken Dryden, Billy Smith, Patrick Roy, Martin Brodeur.......

Look, Chris Osgood IS NOT in the HOF and I could EASILY argue that MAF is no better than Chris Osgood...

Chris Osgood:
- 3 Cups
- 4 Finals Appearances
- 2nd Team All Star
- 2 Jennings Trophies
- 2.49 career GAA
- .905 SV%
- 50 Shutouts
- Runner up to the Vezina in 1995-96
- 401-216 Win-Loss record

Ozzy isn't in the HOF..
- Savard2Secord

Fleury has 3 Cups and 5 appearances (as of today and will end up in the neighbourhood of 600 career wins at the very least when it's all said and done)

That gets him The Cups, The appearances, The wins, The .913 and the 58 Shutouts are also legit

Osgood and Fleury aren't great comparables. Osgood played on loaded RedWing teams where he split duties and his teammate put up more/less the same numbers he did

Fleury has 3 Cups and 5 appearances (as of today and will end up in the neighbourhood of 600 career wins at the very least when it's all said and done)

That gets him The Cups, The appearances, The wins, The .913 and the 58 Shutouts are also legit

Osgood and Fleury aren't great comparables. Osgood played on loaded RedWing teams where he split duties and his teammate put up more/less the same numbers he did
- TheGame316

And MA Fleury has played his entire career on loaded Pens teams, and a very good Vegas team...

MA Fleury and Osgood are great comparables .... The funny part is the Osgood has Fleury beat in personal hardware.... Fleury has never sniffed a Vezina, Ozzy has. Fleury has won the Jennings twice, Fleury hasn't won it once - and their playoff success is basically a tie..... Their career numbers besides wins are very close - and their winning percentage is almost identical ...

IMO, MA Fleury is this era's Chris Osgood.....

MAF is a very good goalie, but to say he has 3 cups is like saying Rollie Melanson has 3 cups. Sure he did a tandem with Billy Smith during the season, but he wasn't the goalie of record in the playoffs.

MAF had 0 of the 16 playoff wins in 2015-16 and 9 out of the 16 in 16-17 (the first 2-3 rounds if memory serves). You can probably credit him with 1.5 cups or 2, with another as a back-up.

Google Brodeur overrated and you will find you are not correct on that Good Sir.
- Phineas

So you let other people's opinions speak for you? If I googled that I bet most would be anonymous internet people and not hockey experts....and Sean Avery

So can you provide evidence that he is overrated?