Does the talent on forward include Patrick / Frost / Lindblom ? If so you might want to rethink things
- ClaudeFather

Not just them but yeah...them too...a little less with Lindblom but Frost and Patrick for sure. During and immediately after bad games I get real emotional but given time to process I start to look at the team more rationally. Frost and Patrick may never be "stars" but they will definitely be at least serviceable players.

Not just them but yeah...them too...a little less with Lindblom but Frost and Patrick for sure. During and immediately after bad games I get real emotional but given time to process I start to look at the team more rationally. Frost and Patrick may never be "stars" but they will definitely be at least serviceable players.
- DANCER

I hope so, real tough break for Frost this year , I thought he was finally going to get going.

I hope so, real tough break for Frost this year , I thought he was finally going to get going.
- ClaudeFather

Yep it sucked. If he's for real he will come back bigger and stronger... Ready to play with the NHL size players. He really looked like a boy playing with the Men over the games he played in. Farabee sure got better after muscling up.

Also from yesterday:




I explained the 4 year window yesterday in detail yesterday. Its if you want to make a run during the time when Couturier and Hayes are at their peak. After that, you will hit a time when they start to decline but will still be expensive, just like Giroux and Voracek today.

Let me reprise the last 14 years (!), during which your viewpoint has been remarkably consistent:

2007: Young core: Richie, Carter, Coburn etc. Key Vets: Briere, Kimmo, Hartnell, Gagne etc..
You: the future is bright (at this time, lot of people here used to think you worked for the Flyers)
2014: Young core: Couturier, Schenn brothers, etc. Key Vets: Giroux, Voracek, Coburn, Simmonds etc.
You: the future is bright.
2021: Young core: TK, Bee, Myers, Provorov, Hart etc. Key Vets: Couturier, Roo, Hayes
You: the future is bright.

When is the future actually going to be the present, amigo? Why isn't the bright future
ever turning on the lights today? is it perhaps because the future is not so bright after all?
- PT21

Please provide me documentation of what I said back in 2007. Let me know when you want to have an actual adult conversation.

It may not wipe it out, but it would surely help? Key departures like Niskanen often cause a domino effect.
- PT21

Adding a player like Ekholm to the team in it's current level of play defensively would have minimal effect.
Let's think back to last year when the Flyers added Hayes, Niskanen and Braun to the team. How much did those moves truly elevate the team? Did it make them better? Sure it did but it didn't make them a true contender. Neither would adding Ekholm. So why pay such a high price when you can look at other times for a different move that is a better fit. That won't add to the cost due to the upcoming expansion draft.

Exactly.

I strongly believe this is not a contending track team is on. I ship out $.

1. Salary held + 2nd rounder for Seattle to take Voracek


- PT21

It would take more for Seattle to take Voracek. With a flat cap for the next 3-4 years, that is not something the Flyers should be doing.

2. Ask Giroux to waive NMC before trade deadline next year so he can go to a contender. Tell him he will not be resigned anyway. He will fetch a decent prospect.

- PT21

Giroux is likely to retire as a Flyers. Why would the Flyers trade Giroux for just a decent prospect? That's awful asset management.

4. Draft high for a couple of years. Get back on the Hextall track.


- PT21

Agree here. Continue to draft and develop.

5. Use $ _ bunch of picks/prospects to sign some UFAs to cock and reload when current core matures and we see exactly what we have.


- PT21

Doesn't make sense. Don't need picks and prospects to sign UFA's. Just need cap space.

Is that a guarantee? NO. But its a guarantee this team is not on a contending track. I would rather gamble given that.
- PT21

Disagree. If players like Hart, Myers, Sanheim, Farabee, Frost and even Provorov all continue to grow and get better, that put's the Flyers on a contending track. Nothing has changed.

Well, I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree cause we're getting nowhere here. My whole point was that the Flyers played much better against some of these teams with top stars last year cause they had a true #1 defense pairing and you're trying to tell me that he wouldn't make any difference. Well, then what's so different from last year to this year if that isn't a major factor? It's basically the same team with the exception of that and they look much worse than last year.
- Phillywhiteout

Defense in this league comes from the team and the tight structure they play, not any one individual. All you have to do for examples is look within our division at the Islanders and Boston. They both play a very tight 5 on 5 defensive structure, which limits their 5 on 5 scoring, but also limits 5 on 5 goals against. For those teams it comes down to their special teams play that determines wins and losses. Last year the Flyers were a well structured 5 on 5 defensive team that won games because they were patient and also had very good special teams. This year in comparison, the Flyers are playing pond hockey 5 on 5, and their special teams suck. This is main reason why they look so bad right now.

I don't want to get into doing things like that. What are they going to pay the Kraken to do that?
- MJL

You may not have to pay them much more. I mean they are a new team and they will want some veterans on their team that still have something left, and you mentioned earlier you thought Jake had something left. And his term is only 3 years for them, which is about right also. And ultimately we don't have to worry about losing anyone else in the ED.

well on the bright side expectations are way down and going lower. Maybe that will relax the boys and let them play.

Nate Schmidt is a nice player but he is not top pairing and he is LH. Toews is also LH. Zadorov is not top pairing and is also LH.
- MJL

And Nate has a high cap hit and is not playing well in Vancouver right now.

well on the bright side expectations are way down and going lower. Maybe that will relax the boys and let them play.
- wcorvette

Yeah.. well whatever takes place, they need a win in the worst way here..

From yesterday, since the topics seem to be the same...

No, you misunderstand my objection to Ekholm. Would Ekholm make us better? Very likely. But would he take us to contender status? No. Imo, we need bigger stars in the team to reach that status, and the price you pay for Ekholm leaves us with less to offer to get those bigger stars.

That is my objection. Others have objected on 2 different grounds:
1. How it would scramble the ED protection list of Sanheim does not go to Preds.
2. Whether Ekholm is as good as you say.
- PT21

Ekholm on this team give us a solid top 4 D moving forward, and takes the pressure off of Sanheim and Myers, which may help them develop faster. That is one step in getting closer to being a contender. We don't Ray Bourque and Paul Coffey on our backend to be contenders, we just need 4 really good players.

Yeah.. well whatever takes place, they need a win in the worst way here..
- Hextall271

this is true

Having Scott involved in any hockey decisions is a scary, scary thought. We'll see what comes to fruition but his comments are very concerning.
- MJL

I love his comments actually

Adding a player like Ekholm to the team in it's current level of play defensively would have minimal effect.
Let's think back to last year when the Flyers added Hayes, Niskanen and Braun to the team. How much did those moves truly elevate the team? Did it make them better? Sure it did but it didn't make them a true contender. Neither would adding Ekholm. So why pay such a high price when you can look at other times for a different move that is a better fit. That won't add to the cost due to the upcoming expansion draft.
- MJL

Ekholm! Ekholm! Ekholm Ekholm! Its going to happen baby! And watch as soon as it does, 10 game winning streak for the boys in the Orange & Black

Sorry, just having some fun ...

I really think some people got used to Hextalls inability to take the Flyers to the next level. I’ve said all along I’ve never been sold on the current core, but I also think they are in a position to add some pieces to help them get to the next level.
- landros 2

In my humble opinion, you might be misunderstanding the subtlety of Hextall's vision. I am conjecturing here, but this is my take:

1. What do we see common to all champs from post lockout era? Stars on the roster who are critical pieces to the success. The closest exception to this is S. Louis, but even they had Pietro. And even if I grant you Blues, they are one out of 16 now.

2. How do you get said stars? The most likely way by far is very high picks.Is that a certain way to success? No, but it is the most common.

Even proud franchises with recent success do it after a certain era ends. Example, Lightning drafted Stamhos and Hedman 1 and 2 in 08-09. Colorado drafted Mackinnon, Makar in top 5, Rantanen top 10. They are not too proud to do some sustained sucking. Detroit is doing it now.

But we won't. I think its nutso, but whatever. Lets move on to what Hextall can do in these circumstances.

3. He inherited a mess of a franchise, full of bloated contracts. That franchise will not also get top 10 picks at a sustained level. What to do with these constraints? The answer to this is in steps 4-5.

4. Slowly free up salary cap, chip away at bloat, and pile picks and pile picks, which are likely to be middle first round picks or thereabouts. Do the minimum necessary to keep team no better than this level.

5. Then see what you have from pool of picks. Wait for Giroux and Voracek contracts to come off the books. You now have salary space, lots of prospects for trade value, and a young team.

6. Then you make your move/s. You have hopefully some very good secondary pieces and you get the stars through trade or FA.

Imo, Flyers needed to give Hextall 3 more years to see his plan through. It is misguided to say he did not take the team to the next level. The time had not yet come to make a move.

There is one example of this model. That is Boston. Boston had a young Bergeron and Krejci in the fold already when they signed Chara, who along with his partner Redden, was a prized FA. Lot of key pieces were picked up via trade and FA signings: Horton, Seidenberg, and probably some others I do not remember.

Unfortunately, the franchise that pridesitself on being tough guys could not take the pain. They turned on the A/C and signed Hayes. Now apparently, they will sign more.

Ekholm on this team give us a solid top 4 D moving forward, and takes the pressure off of Sanheim and Myers, which may help them develop faster. That is one step in getting closer to being a contender. We don't Ray Bourque and Paul Coffey on our backend to be contenders, we just need 4 really good players.
- jd250

Are we making the prime years of Hayes and Couturier a target when to make a Stanley Cup move? If not, your take is fine.

But if we are, imo, we need bigger fish than Ekholm. Bigger fish take resources. Throwing away some of those resources towards someone else is detracting from your ability to get that bigger fish.

Please provide me documentation of what I said back in 2007. Let me know when you want to have an actual adult conversation.
- MJL

Its hardly my fault you forget so much (by your own admission, as you said last year: "I am mid fifties, and I can't remember squat").

You were famous in those days for sticking to the Flyers company line. Many believed you worked for the Flyers. You were also branded "Hockey Jesus" by a certain carpenter from NC/Virginia. I think his name was Lukin.

Don't tell me you have forgotten all that.

Doesn't make sense. Don't need picks and prospects to sign UFA's. Just need cap space.

- MJL

Impending UFAs then.

[quote=MJL]Adding a player like Ekholm to the team in it's current level of play defensively would have minimal effect. /quote]

Please provide me with documentation proving this minimal effect.

It would take more for Seattle to take Voracek.
- MJL

I'm not so sure they wouldn't take him on the proposal stated where they get a second round pick or maybe a prospect like Zamula thrown in. Jake has gotten very lazy defensively, but he's quite a good pass first playmaker, with a ton of experience on the power play. And he keeps things light in the locker room (too light for my taste). If I were building a new team, I would be going for lots of prospects and young players, but I wouldn't mind having Jake as one of the few veterans that brings the kids together and runs the power play. It's only 3 years. He will feed them the puck.
A problem is we have lots of pass first playmakers... G, NP, Hayes, Coots. In some way it's an embarrassment of riches compared to those years ago when we had lots of shooters (Gags, JR, LeClair, Amonte, Recchi, Preems...) And not too many people skilled in dishing. Fortunately Haze and coots can shoot thougg it's not their first instinct. So, yeah, I don't think it's a bad deal for Seattle to take Jake for 3 years with a prospect and we eat some salary. There's no question that Jake can play! The problem for us is that he's at the core of something not working.

By the way, I've been teaching my 8 and 10 year old daughters about how much each player makes, so as we were watching the last game, she said, the way he plays, it's "JAKE FOR-A-CHECK!"

Bruins giving up grade A chances and only down 1. Flyers would have probably been done 2-3

Defense in this league comes from the team and the tight structure they play, not any one individual. All you have to do for examples is look within our division at the Islanders and Boston. They both play a very tight 5 on 5 defensive structure, which limits their 5 on 5 scoring, but also limits 5 on 5 goals against. For those teams it comes down to their special teams play that determines wins and losses. Last year the Flyers were a well structured 5 on 5 defensive team that won games because they were patient and also had very good special teams. This year in comparison, the Flyers are playing pond hockey 5 on 5, and their special teams suck. This is main reason why they look so bad right now.
- jd250

The NY Islanders have scored the 4th most 5 on 5 goals in the league at this point of the season.

Are we making the prime years of Hayes and Couturier a target when to make a Stanley Cup move? If not, your take is fine.

But if we are, imo, we need bigger fish than Ekholm. Bigger fish take resources. Throwing away some of those resources towards someone else is detracting from your ability to get that bigger fish.
- PT21

The Flyers have had a star player in the league in Giroux for what a decade now? How come the Flyers haven't won a Stanley Cup with him yet?

I'm not so sure they wouldn't take him on the proposal stated where they get a second round pick or maybe a prospect like Zamula thrown in. Jake has gotten very lazy defensively, but he's quite a good pass first playmaker, with a ton of experience on the power play. And he keeps things light in the locker room (too light for my taste). If I were building a new team, I would be going for lots of prospects and young players, but I wouldn't mind having Jake as one of the few veterans that brings the kids together and runs the power play. It's only 3 years. He will feed them the puck.
A problem is we have lots of pass first playmakers... G, NP, Hayes, Coots. In some way it's an embarrassment of riches compared to those years ago when we had lots of shooters (Gags, JR, LeClair, Amonte, Recchi, Preems...) And not too many people skilled in dishing. Fortunately Haze and coots can shoot thougg it's not their first instinct. So, yeah, I don't think it's a bad deal for Seattle to take Jake for 3 years with a prospect and we eat some salary. There's no question that Jake can play! The problem for us is that he's at the core of something not working.

By the way, I've been teaching my 8 and 10 year old daughters about how much each player makes, so as we were watching the last game, she said, the way he plays, it's "JAKE FOR-A-CHECK!"
- therabbi

They also need to reach the cap floor. And he is a name to help sell to fans. Not saying it’s going to be him.

If I’m Seattle I do similar to vegas. Stock d as you can sell for assets or two for ones.

If I remember the first year vegas had plenty of cap space.