I agree, I don't like the mix either, that is why I think its possible that Provorov is traded to bring in a top end forward. Especially where he is a LHS defenseman that makes the most money out of the defenseman on this team and you have York, Zamula and Attard waiting in the wings. I also agree that its very fair to point out that if Ellis is the player to make Provorov better, why do we a problem with finding a partner for Risto?
- jd250

Ristolainen already has played with a good partner.

With what happened to Provorov, now they're going to trade him for a forward and throw York, Zamula and Attard to the wolves? Haven't you or they learned that lesson?

I don't agree, Sanheim is by my eye test poor defensively and cannot be the best player in the pairing. I think both players have strengths and a few weaknesses also which is why neither is a top pairing player.
- jd250

So Sanheim's play is dragging rr down?

In your eyes, rr is a better defensemen than Sanheim?

No in my opinion. Provorov is a player that has shown he has true top pairing ability in the pass. He's just gotten sidetracked with the situation. Risto has never been more than a mediocre player.
- MJL

Why isn’t Sanheim or Risto sidetracked by the situation?

It’s not like Prov has played consistent decent hockey since the bubble. It’s been a while.

Not saying the other two guys are great dmen, but this year Provy at 25 mins a night has for the most part struggled. Keep his minutes to 22 or so a night and for the love of god keep him off the pp. He simply can’t handle the minutes. I can’t imagine how bad he would have been this year if not for Braun.

I agree at one time he was a top pairing dman.

Their mix of d in the top 4 is not good and Prov is as much the issue as anyone else. That fact that he sucks up almost 7 mill means he’s probably more to blame.

Again keep him at 22 mins a night so we can see what we have.

Why isn’t Sanheim or Risto sidetracked by the situation?

It’s not like Prov has played consistent decent hockey since the bubble. It’s been a while.

Not saying the other two guys are great dmen, but this year Provy at 25 mins a night has for the most part struggled. Keep his minutes to 22 or so a night and for the love of god keep him off the pp. He simply can’t handle the minutes. I can’t imagine how bad he would have been this year if not for Braun.

I agree at one time he was a top pairing dman.

Their mix of d in the top 4 is not good and Prov is as much the issue as anyone else. That fact that he sucks up almost 7 mill means he’s probably more to blame.

Again keep him at 22 mins a night so we can see what we have.
- Joe Nardone

The difference between playing 1st pair and 2nd pair. The difference between playing 25-27 minutes a game and having to be the teams top defenseman since he was 19 and not.

It's not a fat line unless Falloon, Wellwood and Maroon are all on it.
- Tomahawk

Wasn't Mike York a bit of a chonky boi during his candle in the wind here?

Ristolainen already has played with a good partner.

With what happened to Provorov, now they're going to trade him for a forward and throw York, Zamula and Attard to the wolves? Haven't you or they learned that lesson?
- MJL

But Prov is supposed to be the “good” partner. He is the guy that is supposed to make the dman on his pair better. Also why can’t he move to the right side to accommodate York?

What the heck happened to this kid..

The difference between playing 1st pair and 2nd pair. The difference between playing 25-27 minutes a game and having to be the teams top defenseman since he was 19 and not.
- MJL

Does Saint Ronnie get the blame for that?

Does Saint Ronnie get the blame for that?
- hello it's me 2050

Yes and I like Hextall and wish he was still here.

The difference between playing 1st pair and 2nd pair. The difference between playing 25-27 minutes a game and having to be the teams top defenseman since he was 19 and not.
- MJL

Exactly. He can’t handle it. That’s the point. He is simply not the dman he was 3 years ago. Supposed to get better w age. He has regressed dramatically.

No one is saying the guy can’t play, but watching this team and blaming Sanheim and Risto for their problems on d seems a bit off considering what we are getting from 9 at 25 mins.

Since they removed him from the pp he has been a little better. Since York has joined him he has been a little better, but you gotta wonder, can we get two number ones for him at the draft and replace him w York.

I’d try to load up on number 1s in 23 and use him to start the process.

Elite? We can figure it out as to players but how about management?
Most, if not all, of the GMs are geniuses compared to us commoners. Keeping track of all of the contracts, proposed trades, drafting, injuries, call-ups, ATTENDANCE (critical), charities, alumni, announcers, peripheral endorsements, uniforms, NHL mandates, etc. is a mind-boggling tasking.
Assuming that they ONLY must worry about the first three items on that list is OUR flaw. Distractions abound and when the teams (there are more) and/or players aren't producing, he calls whoever is in charge and either confers or decides about what band-aids need to be applied or removed.
I have great sympathy for the GMs. Me, I would have a siege mentality with PTSD after a year.
However, they can be ranked. What preparations have they made for the present and future? Can they maintain a budget when calamity comes acalling? Can they keep staffing? Do the players, coaches, and staff receive the respect and bennies that are appropriate for professionals? Are the gym and practice facilities in proper order?
His bosses look at final results, but how can any team respond well to a HOFer getting permanetly removed by a freak accident? How much slack is granted for all of the BAD luck?
Ellis as a lynch-pin began this death spiral and we (at least I) awaited this eventual deep aguring. No survivors and we can read the black box but it changes nothing if lessons CAN be learned but the response is lacking or blatantly unintelligent.
I'm going to say Fletcher can influence his destiny, if he isn't crippled by the curses that weigh on this team.
So give Fletch another year. If the team doesn't start TRENDING toward the Promise Land (and within three months of the next season's start), see if he wants to do announcing.
Kvetching is OUR privilege but doing so doesn't make those comments correct.
It's when I hear those who voice that they have "a right to their opinion", they are invariably stupid ones. So since I'm older than, well just about anybody %age wise, let me encourage you to not have opinions, they say more about you than what you reflected on. Stances are better. Less ego and more facts., more easily adjusted to situations.
The moaning about the 'old guard' here is the same for all of the young hot-shots, so confident and energetic, everywhere. Their supposed inflexibility, a singular (adjudged WRONG by many) POV concerning the game, and how it should be played and what vehicles to use to get dropped off at the SCFs.
Most complaints here are out of frustration and disappointment concerning the state of the team. (Legit.) It's the proposals to gain relief from this mess that make me prone to head-shaking fits.
It's not from an aging palsy.
How can you be amused by a game if you invest so much into it? It's not life and death here. Actual insiders who have privy to internal councils are few. Youthful enthusiasms, OK, more hormonal than thoughtful, undrstandable.
One other thought, if you are reading a book, you don't have to finish it.
Like this message.

Elite? We can figure it out as to players but how about management?
Most, if not all, of the GMs are geniuses compared to us commoners. Keeping track of all of the contracts, proposed trades, drafting, injuries, call-ups, ATTENDANCE (critical), charities, alumni, announcers, peripheral endorsements, uniforms, NHL mandates, etc. is a mind-boggling tasking.
Assuming that they ONLY must worry about the first three items on that list is OUR flaw. Distractions abound and when the teams (there are more) and/or players aren't producing, he calls whoever is in charge and either confers or decides about what band-aids need to be applied or removed.
I have great sympathy for the GMs. Me, I would have a siege mentality with PTSD after a year.
However, they can be ranked. What preparations have they made for the present and future? Can they maintain a budget when calamity comes acalling? Can they keep staffing? Do the players, coaches, and staff receive the respect and bennies that are appropriate for professionals? Are the gym and practice facilities in proper order?
His bosses look at final results, but how can any team respond well to a HOFer getting permanetly removed by a freak accident? How much slack is granted for all of the BAD luck?
Ellis as a lynch-pin began this death spiral and we (at least I) awaited this eventual deep aguring. No survivors and we can read the black box but it changes nothing if lessons CAN be learned but the response is lacking or blatantly unintelligent.
I'm going to say Fletcher can influence his destiny, if he isn't crippled by the curses that weigh on this team.
So give Fletch another year. If the team doesn't start TRENDING toward the Promise Land (and within three months of the next season's start), see if he wants to do announcing.
Kvetching is OUR privilege but doing so doesn't make those comments correct.
It's when I hear those who voice that they have "a right to their opinion", they are invariably stupid ones. So since I'm older than, well just about anybody %age wise, let me encourage you to not have opinions, they say more about you than what you reflected on. Stances are better. Less ego and more facts., more easily adjusted to situations.
The moaning about the 'old guard' here is the same for all of the young hot-shots, so confident and energetic, everywhere. Their supposed inflexibility, a singular (adjudged WRONG by many) POV concerning the game, and how it should be played and what vehicles to use to get dropped off at the SCFs.
Most complaints here are out of frustration and disappointment concerning the state of the team. (Legit.) It's the proposals to gain relief from this mess that make me prone to head-shaking fits.
It's not from an aging palsy.
How can you be amused by a game if you invest so much into it? It's not life and death here. Actual insiders who have privy to internal councils are few. Youthful enthusiasms, OK, more hormonal than thoughtful, undrstandable.
One other thought, if you are reading a book, you don't have to finish it.
Like this message.
- Pompous

what's for dinner?

Yes and I like Hextall and wish he was still here.
- FlyerFan16

And I wish Makar was here. Oh well.

He is gone who cares.

But Prov is supposed to be the “good” partner. He is the guy that is supposed to make the dman on his pair better. Also why can’t he move to the right side to accommodate York?

What the heck happened to this kid..
- Joe Nardone

Why is he supposed to make his defense partner better? Based on what? He was supposed to make Justin Braun into a top pairing defenseman? He was supposed to make all his other partners before Niskanen into top pairing defenseman? Based on what principle? Provorov has played the left side his entire career. York doesn't belong playing on the top pairing

I would like a Ratcliff-Frost-Allison line.

Playmaker in Frost
Shooter in Allison
Net front presents in Ratcliff

They are all young but give them 10-15 games to build chemistry together and develop

Exactly. He can’t handle it. That’s the point. He is simply not the dman he was 3 years ago. Supposed to get better w age. He has regressed dramatically.

No one is saying the guy can’t play, but watching this team and blaming Sanheim and Risto for their problems on d seems a bit off considering what we are getting from 9 at 25 mins.

Since they removed him from the pp he has been a little better. Since York has joined him he has been a little better, but you gotta wonder, can we get two number ones for him at the draft and replace him w York.

I’d try to load up on number 1s in 23 and use him to start the process.
- Joe Nardone

Watch if they move him what happens. Or if Ellis can magically get healthy and see what happens.

You're right. Provorov can't carry a top pairing without an adequate partner playing on a poor overall defensive team that lacks structure and defends too much because they don't have the offense and the puck possession game.

I don't know of anyone who is solely blaming Sanhiem and Ristolainen.

And I wish Makar was here. Oh well.

He is gone who cares.
- Joe Nardone

As Bill pointed it out, it wasn't Makar, it was likely Heiskanen.

And if you could read, I was putting some of the blame on Hextall and pointing out I'm a fan, not a hater.

Sup,

1. Sanheim has played more minutes, because he has missed less games.
- jd250

This has little impact on the numbers, other than increasing the sample size that Sanheim has away from Risto, and further cementing that he's better without him.

2. At even strength Sanheim offensively has been better than Risto this year. No surprise here at all, we all can see that with our eyes when we watch the games. However lately Risto has been getting more involved and it has been paying dividends.
- jd250

Yes, Risto is basically a mediocre one-way offensive defenseman in 200-foot cosplay.

Sanheim on the other hand is low key great at a lot of things that drive ES scoring chance generation. He's consistently done this over the years, no matter who his partners are. Most people don't realize how effective he is. Hopefully the Flyers do, or he probably won't be here for long.

3. At even strength, defensively Sanheim is better than Risto. I can't find anywhere what factors into this WAR calculation so I don't know how to respond further without knowing what this is really telling me.
- jd250

It's mostly about expected goals prevention. If a defender is seeing fewer dangerous scoring chances while they're on the ice than would typically be expected, then chances are they're doing many of the little and big things that we typically associate with playing effective defense.

4. Both Risto and Sanheim have not played the PP that much and thus they have the same PP WAR, not surprising.
- jd250

Yes.

We can't assume that just because Sanheim is good at driving ES O that he'd automatically be effective on the PP. It's a totally different animal. He probably deserves more of a shot than he's gotten thus far in his career, tho.

Risto, on the other hand, has a pretty extensive PP record from BUF that we can look back on and see that he wasn't very effective. He has trouble getting shots thru, making quick decisions, and moving the puck precisely... all kind of important on the PP. Buffalo started using him net-front for a reason, lol.

5. Sanheim has played more short handed minutes than Risto and has a slightly better defensive SH WAR, though not by much, .0.07 to -.04, so they are both essentially at 0.
- jd250

Yes, the PK is hot trash and neither is doing much to make it better.

So I conclude that Sanheim has a better over WAR score because of two factors: he is better offensively and defensively at even strength than Risto, but again without knowing what the formula is that this source is using its really hard for me to know what this actually means. For example, in several of these WAR categories, Risto is in the middle of the pack and above good defenseman like Alex Pietrangelo, Ben Chiarat, Jacod Trouba, etc. So its not all bad when it comes to Risto and I do believe if he got more involved in the offense earlier in the season, he would have overall better WAR numbers. Do you blame Risto for this or the coaching, specifically what the coaches asked of Risto to do?
- jd250

Yes, this model is weighted heavily toward ES performance, which isn't surprising considering most of the game is played at 5V5. So Sanheim being really good there boosts his WAR considerably.

Risto is just across the board bad/terrible at everything. Some other guys like Reilly can be really poor defensively, but do other things well enough to still make a very positive impact. Risto doesn't really have a saving grace.

Maybe the Flyers' player model has some intangibles/physicality/"intimidation" factor baked in that boosts his value to them... but probably not, lol. None of those things have ever shown strong statistical correlations to winning. In fact, hitting has mostly been seen as detrimental, 99% of the time if you're hitting somebody that means your team doesn't have the puck. Guy with a lot of hits is probably playing a lot in their own zone.

I hope you know that I appreciate you sending me this and I sincerely hope you can see that I took it very seriously and simply want to have an objective discussion.
- jd250

No problem, I appreciate and respect the effort. There's a wealth of information out there and I hope you find it interesting enough to dive into it more.

Elite? We can figure it out as to players but how about management?
Most, if not all, of the GMs are geniuses compared to us commoners. Keeping track of all of the contracts, proposed trades, drafting, injuries, call-ups, ATTENDANCE (critical), charities, alumni, announcers, peripheral endorsements, uniforms, NHL mandates, etc. is a mind-boggling tasking.
Assuming that they ONLY must worry about the first three items on that list is OUR flaw. Distractions abound and when the teams (there are more) and/or players aren't producing, he calls whoever is in charge and either confers or decides about what band-aids need to be applied or removed.
I have great sympathy for the GMs. Me, I would have a siege mentality with PTSD after a year.
However, they can be ranked. What preparations have they made for the present and future? Can they maintain a budget when calamity comes acalling? Can they keep staffing? Do the players, coaches, and staff receive the respect and bennies that are appropriate for professionals? Are the gym and practice facilities in proper order?
His bosses look at final results, but how can any team respond well to a HOFer getting permanetly removed by a freak accident? How much slack is granted for all of the BAD luck?
Ellis as a lynch-pin began this death spiral and we (at least I) awaited this eventual deep aguring. No survivors and we can read the black box but it changes nothing if lessons CAN be learned but the response is lacking or blatantly unintelligent.
I'm going to say Fletcher can influence his destiny, if he isn't crippled by the curses that weigh on this team.
So give Fletch another year. If the team doesn't start TRENDING toward the Promise Land (and within three months of the next season's start), see if he wants to do announcing.
Kvetching is OUR privilege but doing so doesn't make those comments correct.
It's when I hear those who voice that they have "a right to their opinion", they are invariably stupid ones. So since I'm older than, well just about anybody %age wise, let me encourage you to not have opinions, they say more about you than what you reflected on. Stances are better. Less ego and more facts., more easily adjusted to situations.
The moaning about the 'old guard' here is the same for all of the young hot-shots, so confident and energetic, everywhere. Their supposed inflexibility, a singular (adjudged WRONG by many) POV concerning the game, and how it should be played and what vehicles to use to get dropped off at the SCFs.
Most complaints here are out of frustration and disappointment concerning the state of the team. (Legit.) It's the proposals to gain relief from this mess that make me prone to head-shaking fits.
It's not from an aging palsy.
How can you be amused by a game if you invest so much into it? It's not life and death here. Actual insiders who have privy to internal councils are few. Youthful enthusiasms, OK, more hormonal than thoughtful, undrstandable.
One other thought, if you are reading a book, you don't have to finish it.
Like this message.
- Pompous

Christ, learn to use paragraphs. You're giving me a headache.

As Bill pointed it out, it wasn't Makar, it was likely Heiskanen.

And if you could read, I was putting some of the blame on Hextall and pointing out I'm a fan, not a hater.
- FlyerFan16

Somehow that makes you feel better?

Other flyers say Makar. Either way Hexy is the biggest reason why we are bytching about the flyers d right now and that draft pick set the franchise back. His stubbornness set it back.

Think about it:
Myers
Haag
Ghost
Prov
Sanheim
Morin

We are left w a decent, barely good Sanheim and a regressing Prov. That’s it.

We are left w a decent, barely good Sanheim and a regressing Prov. That’s it.
- Joe Nardone

This team has always sucked at identifying, developing and nurturing dmen.

Even if they had drafted Miro or Makar, they would have (frank)ed them up like they've done to Provy and Ghost.

And Sanheim's doing pretty good this year. "Barely good" is a bit of a clueless statement. But he's probably about to be a cap casualty this summer because Fletch is dumb.

Sup,



This has little impact on the numbers, other than increasing the sample size that Sanheim has away from Risto, and further cementing that he's better without him.



Yes, Risto is basically a mediocre one-way offensive defenseman in 200-foot cosplay.

Sanheim on the other hand is low key great at a lot of things that drive ES scoring chance generation. He consistently does this over the years, no matter who his partners are. Most people don't realize how effective he is. Hopefully the Flyers do, or he probably won't be here for long.



It's mostly about expected goals prevention. If a defender is seeing fewer dangerous scoring chances while they're on the ice than would typically be expected, then chances are they're doing many of the little and big things that we typically associate with playing effective defense.



Yes.

We can't assume that just because Sanheim is good at driving ES O that he'd automatically be effective on the PP. It's a totally different animal. He probably deserves more of a shot than he's gotten thus far in his career, tho.

Risto, on the other hand, has a pretty extensive PP record from BUF that we can look back on and see that he wasn't very effective. He has trouble getting shots thru, making quick decisions, and moving the puck precisely... all kind of important on the PP. Buffalo started using him net-front for a reason, lol.




Yes, the PK is hot trash and neither is doing much to make it better.



Yes, this model is weighted heavily toward ES performance, which isn't surprising considering most of the game is played at 5V5. So Sanheim being really good there boosts his WAR considerably.

Risto is just across the board bad/terrible at everything. Some other guys like Reilly can be really poor defensively, but do other things well enough to still make a very positive impact. Risto doesn't really have a saving grace.

Maybe the Flyers' player model has some intangibles/physicality/"intimidation" factor baked in that boosts his value to them... but probably not, lol. None of those things have ever shown strong statistical correlations to winning. In fact, hitting has mostly been seen as detrimental, 99% of the time if you're hitting somebody that means your team doesn't have the puck. Guy with a lot of hits is probably playing a lot in their own zone.



No problem, I appreciate and respect the effort. There's a wealth of information out there and I hope you find it interesting enough to dive into it more.
- Tomahawk

You think the flyers invested all that money and resources in their analytics team and they went against their guidance on giving Risto 5 x 5.1?

If Risto is so offensively inept then how did he pull off 4 x 40?

Watch if they move him what happens. Or if Ellis can magically get healthy and see what happens.

You're right. Provorov can't carry a top pairing without an adequate partner playing on a poor overall defensive team that lacks structure and defends too much because they don't have the offense and the puck possession game.

I don't know of anyone who is solely blaming Sanhiem and Ristolainen.
- MJL

why do people care what happens if a player is moved and if said players isn't getting the job done on the flyers?

You think the flyers invested all that money and resources in their analytics team and they went against their guidance on giving Risto 5 x 5.1?

If Risto is so offensively inept then how did he pull off 4 x 40?
- Joe Nardone

yes 100%. You want an example....it is a tool to use, not a be all end all.


Look at the situation and why he put up 40. Do not think anyone said he was offensively inept.

This team has always sucked at identifying, developing and nurturing dmen.

Even if they had drafted Miro or Makar, they would have (frank)ed them up like they've done to Provy and Ghost.

And Sanheim's doing pretty good this year. "Barely good" is a bit of a clueless statement. But he's probably about to be a cap casualty this summer because Fletch is dumb.
- Tomahawk

It’s an opinion. I would not refer to yours as clueless.

Is this a place to discuss hockey or get insulted?

I’ve played and attended probably over 1000 games. Don’t consider myself Keith Allen, but I think I know a thing or two about a thing or two, but go ahead and insult away if that’s your deal.

yes 100%. You want an example....it is a tool to use, not a be all end all.


Look at the situation and why he put up 40. Do not think anyone said he was offensively inept.
- hello it's me 2050

What’s the situation?