That's fine, bookmark it as long as when I am proven right you acknowledge it! Everyone was so gung-ho about Farabee when he was drafted and made the team, but what has has shown so far is he is nothing more than an nice player, he is not an all-star and IMO will never be a top scoring winger in this league.
- jd250

You're already wrong tho. He's already better than a depth player.

Here we go again. Farabee has had two seasons in a row scoring at a 20 goal pace on bad teams. Play him with a strong quality playmaking center and 30 goals is not a stretch or a long way away. He absolutely has 30 goal ability and talent. I'm not sure what your definition of a depth player is but he doesn't fit mine. He is a top 6 winger in this league.
- MJL

To be a top 6 winger in this league you actually have to play like a top 6 winger and even more importantly score like a top 6 winger. Farabee has yet to do it! Maybe when this team gets top-end talent, if that ever happens, Farabee will benefit. But in the mean time let's just face it, Farabee is not top-end talent.

Ron Hextall as GM of the Flyers stated he never saw a player get worse by playing big minutes in the AHL. Why can't you and others just accept Tort's explanation that attitude wise (not physical or skill wise) York was not ready to play in the NHL at the start of the season, and that only after he got 20 games in the AHL playing big minutes and in all situations did he make the proper adjustments for him to be ready to contribute to the big club? I know some of you hate the Torts hiring, but can't you give Torts at least a little credit that he knows what he is doing when it comes to player development. Look how much better York, Tippet, Frost, Hart and Cates are playing under his guidance. Even Risto is playing better! Geez!
- jd250

Was York's attitude problem the same kind of attitude problem that you keep saying Frost has? Cates has regressed offensively under Tortorella as he forces him to be a 2 way center. The only thing that Tortorella is doing for Hart is he keeps putting him in net. Otherwise, Tortorella has nothing to do with it. He held Frost back most of the year refusing to play him with the right players. York was the same player at the start of the season that he is now. He should've never been sent down.

Geez is reserved for "even Risto is playing better"

You're already wrong tho. He's already better than a depth player.
- Tomahawk

PLAYER GP G A P +/- PM TOI/G
Joel Farabee LW 33 5 11 16 0 15 17:15

This by the numbers is the definition of a depth player. I know, now you are going to blame the coach and the players he plays with ...

To be a top 6 winger in this league you actually have to play like a top 6 winger and even more importantly score like a top 6 winger. Farabee has yet to do it! Maybe when this team gets top-end talent, if that ever happens, Farabee will benefit. But in the mean time let's just face it, Farabee is not top-end talent.
- jd250

He has played like a top 6 winger in numerous stretches in his career to this point. So now there's this on top of not understanding that he is already better than a depth player.

Was York's attitude problem the same kind of attitude problem that you keep saying Frost has? Cates has regressed offensively under Tortorella as he forces him to be a 2 way center. The only thing that Tortorella is doing for Hart is he keeps putting him in net. Otherwise, Tortorella has nothing to do with it. He held Frost back most of the year refusing to play him with the right players. York was the same player at the start of the season that he is now. He should've never been sent down.

Geez is reserved for "even Risto is playing better"
- MJL

Frost is playing better because Torts broke down his game and rebuilt it to a point where he could play with better players. As Torts said last night, with Frost its about making play instead of giving up the puck all the time, and you are now starting to see him make plays versus deferring to others on his line to make plays. BTW, I have been saying this about Frost for over 1 year now and I am happy that Torts is addressing it, though you certainly won't give me credit for pointing this out in Frost's game just like you won't give Torts any credit.

Frost is playing better because Torts broke down his game and rebuilt it to a point where he could play with better players. As Torts said last night, with Frost its about making play instead of giving up the puck all the time, and you are now starting to see him make plays versus deferring to others on his line to make plays. BTW, I have been saying this about Frost for over 1 year now and I am happy that Torts is addressing it, though you certainly won't give me credit for pointing this out in Frost's game just like you won't give Torts any credit.
- jd250

Deferring to linemates is one of your inventions along with Frost having a bad attitude. What you've been saying about Frost for over a year or longer has been proven to be wrong. Including your claim that he is never going to make it in the NHL. Now you're giving Tortorella credit for breaking down his game. What does that even mean and how exactly did he do that? Give me details.

I’m also really excited to see frost playing like he is. Hope he can keep this up.
- Hextall271

Frost fan here! I feel the same way.
The kid has Ben injured, locked out during covid, or playing with scrubs most of his career.
In my opinion he has elevated his game lately and I think it will keep getting better, too
I have high goes for frosty if he can put on some additional weight and mass
He has all of the talent he just has to show it more consistently

But you know a dozen of these arm chair, unhappy, living in mamas basement folks hate frost

Frost is playing better because Torts broke down his game and rebuilt it to a point where he could play with better players. As Torts said last night, with Frost its about making play instead of giving up the puck all the time, and you are now starting to see him make plays versus deferring to others on his line to make plays. BTW, I have been saying this about Frost for over 1 year now and I am happy that Torts is addressing it, though you certainly won't give me credit for pointing this out in Frost's game just like you won't give Torts any credit.
- jd250

Torts isn't doing anything that Mike Yeo didn't do last season re: Frost. That work was already done.

Here we go again. Farabee has had two seasons in a row scoring at a 20 goal pace on bad teams. Play him with a strong quality playmaking center and 30 goals is not a stretch or a long way away. He absolutely has 30 goal ability and talent. I'm not sure what your definition of a depth player is but he doesn't fit mine. He is a top 6 winger in this league.
- MJL

either way a 20 goal scoring winger is really good and fits the middle six really well

PLAYER GP G A P +/- PM TOI/G
Joel Farabee LW 33 5 11 16 0 15 17:15

This by the numbers is the definition of a depth player. I know, now you are going to blame the coach and the players he plays with ...
- jd250

Joel ranked #60 in goals/60 at 5v5 across all forwards who played greater than 500 mins last season. That put him at a 1st-line level basically. For all situations he was ranked #157, which put him solidly at a 2nd-line level. If the Flyers PP wasn't such a travesty and Joel didn't kill penalties, his rank would have likely been even higher.

In 2020/21, his ES goals/60 ranked him #4 in the league at 5v5! Yes, you're reading that right, higher than OV, DeBrincat, Pasta, McDavid, etc. His all situations rank was #29. Again, the Flyers PP and being a regular PK'er was a drag on that ranking.

Yes, he's struggling for the first bit of this season. But prior to his neck injury, he was easily a top-six quality goal scorer.

Now I don't think his 2020/21 numbers were sustainable.. his actual talent level is probably closer to 2nd-line level at the end of the day. What he is NOT tho is simply a depth player lol.

Torts isn't doing anything that Mike Yeo didn't do last season re: Frost. That work was already done.
- bmeltzer

Torts is giving him the consistent playing time that was needed in a role with more skilled players. Something only Yeo did for an extended time, granted it was in garbage time of the season.

PLAYER GP G A P +/- PM TOI/G
Joel Farabee LW 33 5 11 16 0 15 17:15

This by the numbers is the definition of a depth player. I know, now you are going to blame the coach and the players he plays with ...
- jd250

that to me looks like a 2nd line player. play those numbers out over 82 games. Not to mention he is good defensively as well.

so an 82 game season.....what are we looking at ....?

what are you considering to be a depth player. that to me is 4th line with the possibility of filling in.

also he is having a down year. Remember how he looked when he did play with coots. he is a good compliment player imo

that to me looks like a 2nd line player. play those numbers out over 82 games. Not to mention he is good defensively as well.

so an 82 game season.....what are we looking at ....?
- Peter Richards

That's the real problem w/ Farabee so far. He hasn't come close to playing 82-games.

When he's healthy he's done pretty well.

Farabee is not a first line player on a contending team.

Not from what we have seen from his career so far. A second line player one could argue however I see him having regressed strongly as time goes on.

The player like many on the team, is far too preoccupied with performing well defensively, and safe north/south play. I don’t see the same creativity, that I saw early in his career. The Flyers often do this to their prospects.

Deferring to linemates is one of your inventions along with Frost having a bad attitude. What you've been saying about Frost for over a year or longer has been proven to be wrong. Including your claim that he is never going to make it in the NHL. Now you're giving Tortorella credit for breaking down his game. What does that even mean and how exactly did he do that? Give me details.
- MJL

First, I NEVER said Frost would not make it in the NHL, but instead that I didn't believe he would become a top 6 forward in this league. The jury is still out BTW, so just because he has looked better recently doesn't mean he has achieved anything yet. Last year Mike Yeo stated Frost was not moving his feet consistently and needed to fight harder for pucks. I noted that Frost was giving up the puck much too quickly and deferring to his line mates and that for the most part was not noticeable most shifts. These are all facts. Anyone who knows what they are watching saw this from Frost game after game. Frost came into this year with pretty much the same deficiencies. Torts has apparently set a higher standard for all the players including Frost and it looks like Frost has responded ... again recently. Frost is much more noticeable shift after shift. He is moving his feet much better and is now not only keeping up, but is starting to drive offense. As a result Frost is starting to be more assertive offensively and deferring less to his line mates. Frost is shooting more, skating harder, retrieving pucks and winning more puck battles and his gaps are much tighter. Lately you are starting to see some magic from him with the puck (e.g. the tweener last night on goal). I give Torts high marks for setting the standard high for Frost and getting this game out of him. The question now that has yet to be answered, can Frost sustain this level of play and continue to grow and improve? That is what we will find out this year since Frost will be given every opportunity to play with the best players and play big minutes in all situations. These are the facts and specifics you asked for.

Torts is giving him the consistent playing time that was needed in a role with more skilled players. Something only Yeo did for an extended time, granted it was in garbage time of the season.
- ClaudeFather

Tortorella had Frost playing with scrubs for a lot of the season.

Was York's attitude problem the same kind of attitude problem that you keep saying Frost has? Cates has regressed offensively under Tortorella as he forces him to be a 2 way center. The only thing that Tortorella is doing for Hart is he keeps putting him in net. Otherwise, Tortorella has nothing to do with it. He held Frost back most of the year refusing to play him with the right players. York was the same player at the start of the season that he is now. He should've never been sent down.

Geez is reserved for "even Risto is playing better"
- MJL

wrong

First, I NEVER said Frost would not make it in the NHL, but instead that I didn't believe he would become a top 6 forward in this league. The jury is still out BTW, so just because he has looked better recently doesn't mean he has achieved anything yet. Last year Mike Yeo stated Frost was not moving his feet consistently and needed to fight harder for pucks. I noted that Frost was giving up the puck much too quickly and deferring to his line mates and that for the most part was not noticeable most shifts. These are all facts. Anyone who knows what they are watching saw this from Frost game after game. Frost came into this year with pretty much the same deficiencies. Torts has apparently set a higher standard for all the players including Frost and it looks like Frost has responded ... again recently. Frost is much more noticeable shift after shift. He is moving his feet much better and is now not only keeping up, but is starting to drive offense. As a result Frost is starting to be more assertive offensively and deferring less to his line mates. Frost is shooting more, skating harder, retrieving pucks and winning more puck battles and his gaps are much tighter. Lately you are starting to see some magic from him with the puck (e.g. the tweener last night on goal). I give Torts high marks for setting the standard high for Frost and getting this game out of him. The question now that has yet to be answered, can Frost sustain this level of play and continue to grow and improve? That is what we will find out this year since Frost will be given every opportunity to play with the best players and play big minutes in all situations. These are the facts and specifics you asked for.
- jd250

You posted numerous time that Frost was not going to make it in the NHL and that he was going to be an AHL player.

This deferring to his linemates is an invention of yours. Frost is not doing anything differently than he has been doing for most of the season. The only difference is the puck is going in right now. He has been playing well for most of the season. Getting scoring chances and creating scoring chances for his linemates. He's getting some puck luck now. Tortorella has had zero to do with it if he wasn't so stubborn and played him with better linemates earlier in the season. He might be further along now.

You did not give me any facts or specifics.

Ultimately,, they might not need both of them? Is that due to the Flyers surplus of young talented players?
- MJL

You forgot to add "you idiot."

Of course, I am not an idiot. You're either being obtuse or nit-picky.

You have two players with practically the same build and skill-set that slot similarly in your lineup Say you need a more physical player who is a good net-front guy on the powerplay. Do you not potentially evaluate trading one of those two guys to get that player?

While a lot needs to break right for the team to be in such a position to make such a trade in three to four seasons, the franchise itself has three examples of going from being in the wilderness to being a potential cup contender in such a time frame.

It is not all that ridiculous, just challenging with a 32 team league.

that to me looks like a 2nd line player. play those numbers out over 82 games. Not to mention he is good defensively as well.

so an 82 game season.....what are we looking at ....?

what are you considering to be a depth player. that to me is 4th line with the possibility of filling in.

also he is having a down year. Remember how he looked when he did play with coots. he is a good compliment player imo
- Peter Richards

Playing these numbers out over 82 games yields just under 40 points. This is what you consider to be a 2nd line player in this league? Here are some comparisons of 2nd line player projections from some of the the top teams in the league:

Taylor Hall: 71 points
Braydon Point: 82 points
John Tavares: 75 points
Brock Nelson: 82 points
Jonathan Marchessault: 63 points

See a trend here?

You posted numerous time that Frost was not going to make it in the NHL and that he was going to be an AHL player.

This deferring to his linemates is an invention of yours. Frost is not doing anything differently than he has been doing for most of the season. The only difference is the puck is going in right now. He has been playing well for most of the season. Getting scoring chances and creating scoring chances for his linemates. He's getting some puck luck now. Tortorella has had zero to do with it if he wasn't so stubborn and played him with better linemates earlier in the season. He might be further along now.

You did not give me any facts or specifics.
- MJL

This is just too comical to argue any further ... we are just worlds apart.

Torts isn't doing anything that Mike Yeo didn't do last season re: Frost. That work was already done.
- bmeltzer

If that work was already done, why wasn't Frost playing like he currently is right from the start of training camp? Clearly Frost needed, and needs, more coaching to continue to develop his game. Whether Torts is doing something different or doing the same thing Mike Yeo did last year is irrelevant. What matters is Torts is coaching his butt off and several younger players are clearly benefitting, and for that Torts deserves credit! That is the main point of this conversation.

Tortorella had Frost playing with scrubs for a lot of the season.
- MJL

How about the last 20 games

Joel ranked #60 in goals/60 at 5v5 across all forwards who played greater than 500 mins last season. That put him at a 1st-line level basically. For all situations he was ranked #157, which put him solidly at a 2nd-line level.
- Tomahawk

Correct me if I wrong, but aren't there 32 teams in this league and thus 32 2nd lines, and thus 96 2nd line forwards in the NHL? If so how does #157 make Farabee a solid 2nd line player?