Ya man absolute- those dmen don’t grow on trees eh
- Big23Questions

They say anything to try and further their argument

Only if they take Brodie too because there's no point in taking on two UFAs unless you can keep them and odds are Lindholm costs 7-8 AAV to keep.

Zadorov is also a LHD and the Leafs need a RHD for Rielly. So that's also an issue.

Unless you can flip Zadorov to Carolina for Pesce and get him extended.
- Rare_Jewel

Zadorov is the kind of no nonsense defenceman that can hit, play defense and chip in 10 goals a year. If we could trade Brodie, it would be a great opportunity to get younger and tougher. Brodie, Nylander, Murray for Zadorov and Lindholm. It fixes many problems and leaves some money to upgrade the right defenseman alignment. To keep those two, it would cost around $12M after next year. If Willy's worth $10M and Brodie around $5M, it leaves a few bucks for re-signing Bertuzzi and Domi next time around. Muzzin's final year drops off next summer. There's the money for Bertuzzi and Domi that will lock them up for a long time. Robidas Island will be empty after all of these years. I wonder what ever happened to Lupul?

Take it from a guy who's cheering from an opposing team.

Nylander has annoyed me alot more with his timely goals than Marner ever did.

Now that's not saying Nylander is better than Marner.

But I know who hurt me more over the years.

- Scabeh

Kovalev? The unreal talented tin man…I’m just joking around eh no hard feelings

[quote=Rare_Jewel]Marner is a superior player and it's not even really that close. It's not about Team Marner or Team Nylander. It's just objective and quantifiable…


can’t repeat the Selke again. I will throw up.

+- is possibly the dumbest stat you could throw at me. There is so much that goes into that stat it is borderline useless to gauge a player by that stat on such a team sport.

Marner plays against top line? Because 34 is typically on the ice too. Also, Willy plays against top lines too. Willy has also seen a decent amount of time with Matthews.

Killing penalties. For sure that’s a great reason to give millions! I wonder what Jamal Mayers would fetch on this theory. Great pk player!

His pts and 34 goals go hand in hand. He sure does get a ton of secondary assists. That is interesting about the primary assists thing. Where’s that stat: I’m legit curios of this was a one year thing or if he always posts the second most?

Nobody questions what a great creative offensive player Marner is and how smart he is at picking off pucks…at least I hope they don’t cause that’s dumb. I just don’t think he is millions of dollars better at offence that Willy. He’s not. Not even close to being Millions better.

Not sure “it’s a simple fact” regarding Mitch making his player last around him better. It’s not. I know this because I can state that it’s the players he plays with that make Mitch better and you can’t at all PROVE to me that I’m wrong. JT played with plugs and got a lot of points. He got a bit more with 16? How much does 16 make vs those plugs?

His next contract will be horrific.

Matthews Marner and a few others always put up decent point totals on playoffs. Well except Mitch with goals over his time in TO - the issue is he is absolutely terrified to make a play in playoffs when the space is gone and physicality picks up. He wilts and always will. Great offensive guy but a better asset to move.
- Big23Questions

You are my favourite non-Leafs poster. I kind of feel like I’m cheating on my best girl by revealing that, but there it is!

*ahem*

Sorry you guys now have a Holl on defence.

You are my favourite non-Leafs poster. I kind of feel like I’m cheating on my best girl by revealing that, but there it is!

*ahem*

Sorry you guys now have a Holl on defence.
- mjones242

Haha thanks man…Holl on the Wings is not a bad thing AT THE MOMENT. We aren’t a contending playoff team. He has no business being in the 6 group on a playoff team. I would keep him as a 7/8 guy but he make far too much for that

I hate to say it but there were some much lower marks from minorities hat most likely took their spot.

My daughter got into UBC with a 93% average, her friend with a 92% average did not get in.

My daughter became friends with an aboriginal girl that got in with a 70% average who dropped out of school in April.

System is broken and there is no fix in sight in this politically correct world we live.

Besides that, I told my daughter that she has to trash an Canuck fans and remind them that Leafs are superior.
- Cooshie

As someone who lost a good job in the federal government, while I was still a contract worker, I know the bias that goes on there. It happened to me in the mid '90's and it totally put my life in a different trajectory. I worked hard to get to the top of the list for a full time position but was bumped due to a minority that got the position because of affirmative action. Instead, I left the government and went into the transportation sector and also into research into History and Political Science. I was in my mid 30's then. It still irks me to this day.

Kovalev? The unreal talented tin man…I’m just joking around eh no hard feelings
- Big23Questions

Kovalev. What a player.

Kovalev. What a player.

- Scabeh

Unreal hands man Christ! But my god was he ever Russian eh

Getting quiet in here for the first time in over a week.

I’m sore you think you can refute this but I suspect it would be a lot of +\- and he’s a PK super star and the reporters live his selke game type arguments.

So the Wings wouldn’t trade for either. There is no planet any GM would trade MO for 16 or 88. This isn’t a Wings talk place so I’ll stop there but my god man - just let it go. They are both really good at offence. One just gets paid way too much for regular season play and way too much for a winger
- Big23Questions

Don't be sore because you suspect the facts prove you wrong.

What you fail to grasp is that Marner is a fantastic offensive player who compliments that game with equally fantastic defensive ability. As does Matthews. Nylander however, is almost exclusively an offensive player who at periods of time in his career has played flat out disinterested.

One is worth his salary because he plays at both ends of the ice while the other is looking to be grossly overpaid to be a one-way player and might find himself traded sooner rather than later because of it.

Don't be sore because you suspect the facts prove you wrong.

What you fail to grasp is that Marner is a fantastic offensive player who compliments that game with equally fantastic defensive ability. As does Matthews. Nylander however, is almost exclusively an offensive player who at periods of time in his career has played flat out disinterested. One is worth his salary because he plays at both ends of the ice while the other is looking to be grossly overpaid to be a one-way player and might find himself traded sooner rather than later because of it.
- Rare_Jewel

Oh that’s cute bud - picked on a typo eh! Good for you man. Probably not as sore you taking a lap around a sheet buddy. Tape those ankles kiddo.

You say Marner has equally fantastic defensive ability as his offence? Yikes! You know not what you watch eh. It’s almost insulting to his offensive ability to say that Christ.

What would you say a wingers job is in the neutral zone under Keefe system while you play with 34? Will you give me an answer or do you not grasp the game at that level

Oh that’s cute bud - picked on a typo eh! Good for you man. Probably not as sore you taking a lap around a sheet buddy. Tape those ankles kiddo.

You say Marner has equally fantastic defensive ability as his offence? Yikes! You know not what you watch eh. It’s almost insulting to his offensive ability to say that Christ.

What would you say a wingers job is in the neutral zone under Keefe system while you play with 34? Will you give me an answer or do you not grasp the game at that level
- Big23Questions

I have no idea what you're on about. Keefe's system does not only employ a fast breakout from the D-zone, involving the wingers jumping the zone early, but it also involves a high forward rotation in the offensive zone where the high forward will retreat into the neutral zone if they're defensively responsible.

Marner is a superior defensive forward and this has been reflected whether he has played with JT or AM. Nylander looks better with Matthews but not with Tavares - and that's pretty obvious why.

Let's look at the last 4 years, and start with Even Strength Defense rating as calculated by Evolving-Hockey:

In 19-20 Marner had an EVD rating of 0.2
In 20-21 Marner had an EVD rating of 1.2
In 21-22 Marner had an EVD rating of 2.4
In 22-23 Marner had an EVD rating of 3

In 19-20 Nylander had an EVD rating of -1.1
In 20-21 Nylander had an EVD rating of 1.2
In 21-22 Nylander had an EVD rating of 0.4
In 22-23 Nylander had an EVD rating of -3.5

Marner has gotten better year over year. Nylander has sacrificed defense for offense on more than one occasion.


This is the Even Strength Offense over the same period:

In 19-20 Marner had an EVO rating of 3.8
In 20-21 Marner had an EVO rating of 8.4
In 21-22 Marner had an EVO rating of 16.2
In 22-23 Marner had an EVO rating of 10.5

In 19-20 Nylander had an EVO rating of 5.7
In 20-21 Nylander had an EVO rating of 3.4
In 21-22 Nylander had an EVO rating of 4.7
In 22-23 Nylander had an EVO rating of 10.5

In both of Nylander's exceptional offensive seasons, he had a negative defensive rating.

Now when you consider power play and PK time into the entirety of the WAR (Wins Above Replacement) measurement, this is how they compare:

In 19-20 Marner had a total WAR rating of 1.4
In 20-21 Marner had a total WAR rating of 2.5
In 21-22 Marner had a total WAR rating of 3.9
In 22-23 Marner had a total WAR rating of 3.8

In 19-20 Nylander had a total WAR rating of 1.3
In 20-21 Nylander had a total WAR rating of 1.4
In 21-22 Nylander had a total WAR rating of 2.2
In 22-23 Nylander had a total WAR rating of 2.2

They may have been closer in 19-20 when Marner was injured, but Marner has surpassed Nylander's contribution to the team by more than just playing with Matthews - it's as an overall contributor.

I have no idea what you're on about. Keefe's system does not only employ a fast breakout from the D-zone, involving the wingers jumping the zone early, but it also involves a high forward rotation in the offensive zone where the high forward will retreat into the neutral zone if they're defensively responsible.

Marner is a superior defensive forward and this has been reflected whether he has played with JT or AM. Nylander looks better with Matthews but not with Tavares - and that's pretty obvious why.

Let's look at the last 4 years, and start with Even Strength Defense rating as calculated by Evolving-Hockey:

In 19-20 Marner had an EVD rating of 0.2
In 20-21 Marner had an EVD rating of 1.2
In 21-22 Marner had an EVD rating of 2.4
In 22-23 Marner had an EVD rating of 3

In 19-20 Nylander had an EVD rating of -1.1
In 20-21 Nylander had an EVD rating of 1.2
In 21-22 Nylander had an EVD rating of 0.4
In 22-23 Nylander had an EVD rating of -3.5

Marner has gotten better year over year. Nylander has sacrificed defense for offense on more than one occasion.


This is the Even Strength Offense over the same period:

In 19-20 Marner had an EVO rating of 3.8
In 20-21 Marner had an EVO rating of 8.4
In 21-22 Marner had an EVO rating of 16.2
In 22-23 Marner had an EVO rating of 10.5

In 19-20 Nylander had an EVO rating of 5.7
In 20-21 Nylander had an EVO rating of 3.4
In 21-22 Nylander had an EVO rating of 4.7
In 22-23 Nylander had an EVO rating of 10.5

In both of Nylander's exceptional offensive seasons, he had a negative defensive rating.

Now when you consider power play and PK time into the entirety of the WAR (Wins Above Replacement) measurement, this is how they compare:

In 19-20 Marner had a total WAR rating of 1.4
In 20-21 Marner had a total WAR rating of 2.5
In 21-22 Marner had a total WAR rating of 3.9
In 22-23 Marner had a total WAR rating of 3.8

In 19-20 Nylander had a total WAR rating of 1.3
In 20-21 Nylander had a total WAR rating of 1.4
In 21-22 Nylander had a total WAR rating of 2.2
In 22-23 Nylander had a total WAR rating of 2.2

They may have been closer in 19-20 when Marner was injured, but Marner has surpassed Nylander's contribution to the team by more than just playing with Matthews - it's as an overall contributor.
- Monkeypunk

Meh problem with stats is you can pick what you like to further an argument. Nylander has imroved significantly defensively and closed the gap if you use Defensive Point Share. +/- can be a useless stat but Nylander's rose this year while playing with Matthews, while Marner's dropped while playing with JT. Christ Bunting's was higher than Marner because he spent more time with Matthews.

How are things in vaxbuzz tonight?

tree-live, tree-laugh, tree-love!!

I have no idea what you're on about. Keefe's system does not only employ a fast breakout from the D-zone, involving the wingers jumping the zone early, but it also involves a high forward rotation in the offensive zone where the high forward will retreat into the neutral zone if they're defensively responsible.

Marner is a superior defensive forward and this has been reflected whether he has played with JT or AM. Nylander looks better with Matthews but not with Tavares - and that's pretty obvious why.

Let's look at the last 4 years, and start with Even Strength Defense rating as calculated by Evolving-Hockey:

In 19-20 Marner had an EVD rating of 0.2
In 20-21 Marner had an EVD rating of 1.2
In 21-22 Marner had an EVD rating of 2.4
In 22-23 Marner had an EVD rating of 3

In 19-20 Nylander had an EVD rating of -1.1
In 20-21 Nylander had an EVD rating of 1.2
In 21-22 Nylander had an EVD rating of 0.4
In 22-23 Nylander had an EVD rating of -3.5

Marner has gotten better year over year. Nylander has sacrificed defense for offense on more than one occasion.


This is the Even Strength Offense over the same period:

In 19-20 Marner had an EVO rating of 3.8
In 20-21 Marner had an EVO rating of 8.4
In 21-22 Marner had an EVO rating of 16.2
In 22-23 Marner had an EVO rating of 10.5

In 19-20 Nylander had an EVO rating of 5.7
In 20-21 Nylander had an EVO rating of 3.4
In 21-22 Nylander had an EVO rating of 4.7
In 22-23 Nylander had an EVO rating of 10.5

In both of Nylander's exceptional offensive seasons, he had a negative defensive rating.

Now when you consider power play and PK time into the entirety of the WAR (Wins Above Replacement) measurement, this is how they compare:

In 19-20 Marner had a total WAR rating of 1.4
In 20-21 Marner had a total WAR rating of 2.5
In 21-22 Marner had a total WAR rating of 3.9
In 22-23 Marner had a total WAR rating of 3.8

In 19-20 Nylander had a total WAR rating of 1.3
In 20-21 Nylander had a total WAR rating of 1.4
In 21-22 Nylander had a total WAR rating of 2.2
In 22-23 Nylander had a total WAR rating of 2.2

They may have been closer in 19-20 when Marner was injured, but Marner has surpassed Nylander's contribution to the team by more than just playing with Matthews - it's as an overall contributor.
- Monkeypunk

Your comments on system: The only part correct was that Keefe doesn’t get wings to flee. The rest is just a description of what the F3 does on any team that’s not tue question I asked. But man that wasn’t for you anyways so I’m not trying to be rude but if you don’t k ow what I’m on about why respond? Honestly I’m not trying to be a jerk eh

I think you not knowing why I was saying led to you pasting a bunch of stats to prove that Marner is better defensively than Willy. That’s not ever what I was saying. I was saying Marner is not a good defensive forward. Better than Willy - yup. I agree there to be honest. But that doesn’t mean he is an elite level defensive forward cause he’s not.


I feel like some are completely ignoring points just to argue so I will repeat for the last time:

Willy and Marner are both real good offensive players. Mitch gets PK time. Mitch is a passer, Willy a shooter primarily. If Willy wants 10+ he should be out the door yesterday. Mitch should be signing for what he makes now on the next contract. He is overpaid considering what the team already has in terms of offence and the fact he’s a winger. Also, Marner I think because he is a bit better of a player than Marner would bring back a bit better return. Therefore I would trade Marner.

Stats are great I agree. But fact is this is a physical game played by Man. Man can be intimidated. As long as the game allows hitting and fighting players like Marner (soft skill) will always wilt when it counts. Not saying get a bunch of goons but I’m saying to pay a guy who plays wing (by the way defensive responsibilities as a winger especially under Keefe is a fraction of detail vs a centre), doesn’t score, doesn’t hit, doesn’t fight, on a team that has offence, and who will just not be there and play timid come playoff time is irresponsible. I get he PKs but Christ man just get a solid pk player for about 9million less and trade him to solidify the d and middle 6

How are things in vaxbuzz tonight?

tree-live, tree-laugh, tree-love!!


- fifty__missions

Ha don’t jinx it - I thought it was gonna pop off over a different socio type post a page or 2 back…thank the Jebus it didn’t. Just the 16 vs 88 that I innocently got into. Was just trying to say both are good players with good value but one should go

Meh problem with stats is you can pick what you like to further an argument. Nylander has imroved significantly defensively and closed the gap if you use Defensive Point Share. +/- can be a useless stat but Nylander's rose this year while playing with Matthews, while Marner's dropped while playing with JT. Christ Bunting's was higher than Marner because he spent more time with Matthews.
- jribout

34 is the elevation. Absolute fantastic 2 way centre. Hope for you guys he retires a Leafs player. Obviously cost being reasonable (I hear apparently it will?)

34 is the elevation. Absolute fantastic 2 way centre. Hope for you guys he retires a Leafs player. Obviously cost being reasonable (I hear apparently it will?)
- Big23Questions

And it is not close

Haha thanks man…Holl on the Wings is not a bad thing AT THE MOMENT. We aren’t a contending playoff team. He has no business being in the 6 group on a playoff team. I would keep him as a 7/8 guy but he make far too much for that
- Big23Questions

If losing is Detroit's plan, than Holl is your guy. He'll help you guys out splendidly.

I have no idea what you're on about. Keefe's system does not only employ a fast breakout from the D-zone, involving the wingers jumping the zone early, but it also involves a high forward rotation in the offensive zone where the high forward will retreat into the neutral zone if they're defensively responsible.

Marner is a superior defensive forward and this has been reflected whether he has played with JT or AM. Nylander looks better with Matthews but not with Tavares - and that's pretty obvious why.

Let's look at the last 4 years, and start with Even Strength Defense rating as calculated by Evolving-Hockey:

In 19-20 Marner had an EVD rating of 0.2
In 20-21 Marner had an EVD rating of 1.2
In 21-22 Marner had an EVD rating of 2.4
In 22-23 Marner had an EVD rating of 3

In 19-20 Nylander had an EVD rating of -1.1
In 20-21 Nylander had an EVD rating of 1.2
In 21-22 Nylander had an EVD rating of 0.4
In 22-23 Nylander had an EVD rating of -3.5

Marner has gotten better year over year. Nylander has sacrificed defense for offense on more than one occasion.


This is the Even Strength Offense over the same period:

In 19-20 Marner had an EVO rating of 3.8
In 20-21 Marner had an EVO rating of 8.4
In 21-22 Marner had an EVO rating of 16.2
In 22-23 Marner had an EVO rating of 10.5

In 19-20 Nylander had an EVO rating of 5.7
In 20-21 Nylander had an EVO rating of 3.4
In 21-22 Nylander had an EVO rating of 4.7
In 22-23 Nylander had an EVO rating of 10.5

In both of Nylander's exceptional offensive seasons, he had a negative defensive rating.

Now when you consider power play and PK time into the entirety of the WAR (Wins Above Replacement) measurement, this is how they compare:

In 19-20 Marner had a total WAR rating of 1.4
In 20-21 Marner had a total WAR rating of 2.5
In 21-22 Marner had a total WAR rating of 3.9
In 22-23 Marner had a total WAR rating of 3.8

In 19-20 Nylander had a total WAR rating of 1.3
In 20-21 Nylander had a total WAR rating of 1.4
In 21-22 Nylander had a total WAR rating of 2.2
In 22-23 Nylander had a total WAR rating of 2.2

They may have been closer in 19-20 when Marner was injured, but Marner has surpassed Nylander's contribution to the team by more than just playing with Matthews - it's as an overall contributor.
- Monkeypunk

I never paid for winRAR so I couldn't have known this.

Treliving on the ROR rumours, wanting out of a bad Leaf room: "We had a pretty good idea which players would move on. I had a really good talk with Ryan. He loved playing here, loved our players, loved the room. But sometimes when you’re from this area, there’s a lot more to it."


Sounds like an Ontario boy that didn’t want to play in toronto
- Santo_44

You think the GM who just endorsed the coach would say "yeah he didn't like the coach I picked"?

You think the GM who just endorsed the coach would say "yeah he didn't like the coach I picked"?
- Aaron_85

You still mad?

34 is the elevation. Absolute fantastic 2 way centre. Hope for you guys he retires a Leafs player. Obviously cost being reasonable (I hear apparently it will?)
- Big23Questions

Easily the best defensive forward on the Leafs. Easily.

You think you have problems?

My daughter is going to McGill in six weeks.

I’m going to have to have a long talk with her about respecting her father’s wishes - we are a blue and white house.

Shut up, Scabby.
- Atomic Wedgie