I doubt it’s possible to stay competitive for a decade, win cups, while not selling off the future to get that job done while operating in a salary cap.
- paulr

Is it? Again, this is so far out of my league and a reason I read message boards, to hear opinions on the cap.

Seems to my pickled mind one of the ways to keep the train rolling, as I posted, is to have the balls to trade that 4th or 5th best player who's helped you win before cap hell (ie, you have no leverage in a trade) for premium futures/draft picks/prospects.

Kinda like TOR is in right now with Nylander. If they have/had a player to replace him right now (Kniess?) they can add some fine capital in a trade for him in prospects/draft picks or futures to replenish as they keep winning and use that cap space to fill a need now.

The only way to lock up the core, regardless of number and fill the team with quality depth is to convince everyone to sign for a smaller contract, beginning with the top player. If the top player can’t be convinced to take less to give the team its best chance to win, it will be difficult to get the remaining core to do likewise. And human nature being what it is, what chance do you think there is that that will happen?
- paulr

Maybe. Didn't Stevie Y get Stamkos to take a bit less getting him to buy into your theory and the rest of the core fell into line of taking a bit less so you could add the depth needed to win?

Or, make the right calls on kids coming out of their ELC and signing them long term which becomes a value contract when they really pop in 3-4 yrs? This way you don't have to get them to take less once they are elite?

Or a bit of both strategies?

Maybe. Didn't Stevie Y get Stamkos to take a bit less getting him to buy into your theory and the rest of the core fell into line of taking a bit less so you could add the depth needed to win?

Or, make the right calls on kids coming out of their ELC and signing them long term which becomes a value contract when they really pop in 3-4 yrs? This way you don't have to get them to take less once they are elite?

Or a bit of both strategies?
- Mr Ricochet

Didn't Boston do that with two of their star players?

Didn't Boston do that with two of their star players?
- bjphawkfan

You mean last yr with Bergeron and Krejci taking less or signing Marchand to a long term deal way back when and it quickly became a fantastic value contract for the organIzation? ....... Or both?

Sorry guys, been a while since I have posted on here, but always read over the years and years and years!

In regards to Yzerman, he is probably the best GM in the league in present times/years. He has figured out how to circumvent the cap (see Kucherov and the others come playoff time now the cap doesn't matter,) to making viable trades year in and year out, and even let certain guys walk that everyone thought he should've resigned over others.

Case in point, in this day and age of the cap, what we are seeing KD do (so far) is a prime example of what a solid GM does. Yzerman is doing the same style in Detroit now as well, but he has a more structured team which allows him to make splashes this year in free agency/trades unlike the Hawks who are a year or so behind that foundation.

All in all, I don't think it depends on your "top guys" to take discounts to make it work, its all about working the top 2nd line guys/picks/prospects and juggling what is worth investing, keeping, trading etc. We are at a point now in the league where there is going to be a huge transition of new, young kids taking over and its great to see.

Sharp always seemed to be trying to put himself in scoring position. I don't see that in Kurashev. Sharp also had a quick release and an accurate shot.
- -Doh-

Yeah, but was he doing that in Philly before he got traded, or was that something that came later?

Is it? Again, this is so far out of my league and a reason I read message boards, to hear opinions on the cap.

Seems to my pickled mind one of the ways to keep the train rolling, as I posted, is to have the balls to trade that 4th or 5th best player who's helped you win before cap hell (ie, you have no leverage in a trade) for premium futures/draft picks/prospects.

Kinda like TOR is in right now with Nylander. If they have/had a player to replace him right now (Kniess?) they can add some fine capital in a trade for him in prospects/draft picks or futures to replenish as they keep winning and use that cap space to fill a need now.
- Mr Ricochet

In 2010 terms you are trading Hammer, Bolland, Buff, etc., for picks and prospects while you are in the middle of a Cup window. These prospects will not help for several years, meaning the team will not be as good until more prospects turn out to be as good as the guys you traded. No freaking way I'd want the GM of the team I follow to do that. What are the odds that ANY of the prospects will be as good as the guys you traded? What GM has ever been THAT successful at drafting to constantly replace guys at that level?

Sorry guys, been a while since I have posted on here, but always read over the years and years and years!

In regards to Yzerman, he is probably the best GM in the league in present times/years. He has figured out how to circumvent the cap (see Kucherov and the others come playoff time now the cap doesn't matter,) to making viable trades year in and year out, and even let certain guys walk that everyone thought he should've resigned over others.

Case in point, in this day and age of the cap, what we are seeing KD do (so far) is a prime example of what a solid GM does. Yzerman is doing the same style in Detroit now as well, but he has a more structured team which allows him to make splashes this year in free agency/trades unlike the Hawks who are a year or so behind that foundation.

All in all, I don't think it depends on your "top guys" to take discounts to make it work, its all about working the top 2nd line guys/picks/prospects and juggling what is worth investing, keeping, trading etc. We are at a point now in the league where there is going to be a huge transition of new, young kids taking over and its great to see.
- purepone

Prepare to defend yourself. I do not keep score, but sometimes find it amusing, of the Stevie Y haters on this board. .... You will be asked to defend your love of Stevie Y.

In 2010 terms you are trading Hammer, Bolland, Buff, etc., for picks and prospects while you are in the middle of a Cup window. These prospects will not help for several years, meaning the team will not be as good until more prospects turn out to be as good as the guys you traded. No freaking way I'd want the GM of the team I follow to do that. What are the odds that ANY of the prospects will be as good as the guys you traded? What GM has ever been THAT successful at drafting to constantly replace guys at that level?
- mohel

I do not remember who was in line to make big dough contributing to cap hell way back when, so I can't really address your post except to bring up a today's example.

Nylander is thought to be a core member in line to make 9-10-11 mil. A player maybe equivalent to a Hammer or Buff. TOR has the balls to trade him to CAL for Hanafin.

They have a player who can step in and fill some of what is lost in Knies, answer a big need at defense and save what would be about 3-4-5 mil in cap space as well to use going forward. ...... Moving a damn near elite player in Nylander takes some balls but in doing so, assuming you make the best of what doing so would allow, might end up a win.

Or CAR moving Pesce to answer their scoring needs. Not easy to move a proven top 4 Dman.

Or LVG having the stones to move a proven player in Reilly Smith and replace his salary space created to add the upside POSSIBILTY of Barbashev.

Or you keep your Buffs-Hammers, go as far as that will take you and tear it down to the studs 6-7 yrs out and tank to completely reimagine/rebuild the franchise and endure the pain that comes with that?

How many core pieces, and the cost of that, can you have? Is there a fixed number?

Maybe. Didn't Stevie Y get Stamkos to take a bit less getting him to buy into your theory and the rest of the core fell into line of taking a bit less so you could add the depth needed to win?

Or, make the right calls on kids coming out of their ELC and signing them long term which becomes a value contract when they really pop in 3-4 yrs? This way you don't have to get them to take less once they are elite?

Or a bit of both strategies?
- Mr Ricochet

My whole premise was trying to get guys to sign for less probably wouldn’t work.

Prepare to defend yourself. I do not keep score, but sometimes find it amusing, of the Stevie Y haters on this board. .... You will be asked to defend your love of Stevie Y.
- Mr Ricochet

So providing context means you're a hater? In terms of the whole Stamkos taking less money scenario and how Yzerman got him to do it, I think it's worth mentioning that at the time Stamkos re-signed with the Lightning, their Core group had won nothing.

I think it's a little easier to convince a player to take less to keep the band together vs negotiating with players after they've won a Cup.

Not having to pay state taxes is worth mentioning as well.

The other poster mentioned how he's doing things in Detroit as a good model. It may be, but it remains to be seen. He pushed some of his chips in last Summer spending $$$ in FA and I think it could be argued that he might've jumped the gun a bit. I don't think they looked like a team ready to take a big step. They still finished in the bottom 10 in the league.

Edit - TBH, while trying to be fair and balanced, I am also a hater.

I’ll be honest I’ve never really paid attention to him but looking back at scouting reports of the 2020 draft, including Wiz, he’s considered to be a very good skater.


Wiz’s scouting report.

Off the charts hockey sense and imagination on offense starting with the 2018 World U-18s where he surprised his linemates with passes that could have been coming from a seasoned NHL pro. Fluid and fearless going inside the circles in the attack zone, where he steps out front to screen and set up for tip ins. Will be a solid attacking wing but might also find a home as a NHL centre with the way he easily makes his way inside. A smooth high speed heads up player who moves effortlessly through the attack zone with such good confidence and presence. Just don't try and categorizing him as a finese player
- paulr[ because he will physically grind out with anyone, finishing his checks and is fearless on the forecheck. Doesn't necessarily fit the category of a blazer as he uses his hands more than blades to elude checkers.There is no denying how quickly he lets the puck fly, and how decisive he is while possessing it. He plays within the dots all the time. Will fire cutting towards the net, and always has his stick down looking for the puck. Has displayed elite playmaking skills and a strong wall game. In a blink of the eye, he can come off the boards and drive on the net, draw attention and pass to his open teammate. Strong and difficult to move and not adverse to giving as well as submitting. Although he must improve his first step, he still manages to keep churning when carrying in the high traffic areas. It is his all around hockey abilities that round him as a guy who will build chemistry quicky with good NHL players and improve the attask of whichever team selects him early in the first. You has to see him as both finisher and offensiev generator/creator who will go get the puck when his teams himto help them catch up.


--Bill Placzek-

I must be misremembering or confusing him with another top guy. Thought even Wiz commented on here about his skating just be average.

That said, watching Rags games, he never has really stood out to me, like a #1 overall pick. Not even sure I'd say he's even stood out as a 1st round pick.

Myself, I don't think they are at the point for this kind of move.

Were they? I'm hoping KD has figured out a different model. To win some cups and not have to strip the thing bare/tank as a result of winning those cups. A model where a TT doesn't have to be sacrificed to keep the train rolling.
- Mr Ricochet

If they go through a stretch where they win 3 cups in 6 years, this will happen again.

I still think think this move is not as some folks make it out to be, if Bickell doesn't get MS, not sure this is that big of a deal.

The TT trade, or any other player of his promise are going to be moved if you are good enough to win 3 cups.

The issue is you can trade them before there is a gun to your head, that seemingly was Stan's issue, waiting too long

My whole premise was trying to get guys to sign for less probably wouldn’t work.
- paulr

Oh. But, do I remember wrong that Stevie Y got Stamkos to take a little less then Hedman, Kucherov and Point followed?...... If true it has been done.

But, I don't always think players are greedy they see their value to a team is seen by what they're paid. Same as feeling he's as valuable as Tavares and Marner and therefore wants the same salary as those guys and feels "disrespected" if not paid the same... Competitive guys both on and off the ice. And of course some guys just want as much money as they can get their hands on, and nothing wrong with that.

I will agree though, getting guys to take less is not a really a business model. Maybe doing so here and there would be helpful but certainly nothing to be counted on.

I wonder if you, or anyone else, thinks StanBowPops&McD overpaid Kane and Toews? I do and without researching it, and besides them winning cups, I don't think either of their numbers ever led the league in any given yr.

Yes, winning cups is all that matters so Kane and Toews were at the very least instrumental you still don't wanna overpay them, or anyone.

Yeah, but was he doing that in Philly before he got traded, or was that something that came later?
- Chunk

Sharp only played 67 games spread over 3 years with Philly. Kurashev has played 191 games spread over 3 years in the NHL. He may get marginally better. But he pretty much is what he is.

Prepare to defend yourself. I do not keep score, but sometimes find it amusing, of the Stevie Y haters on this board. .... You will be asked to defend your love of Stevie Y.
- Mr Ricochet

I may be #1 on that list you don't keep score on


My beef is everyone always anoints him as a great GM, maybe the best, its odd to me that a guy who never has won as a GM gets anointed as the greatest. What other walk of life does that happen in????

Tampa, I'm sorry, but he never took the big swing when he needed to. Tampa didn't win until Brisbois, I'm assuming after watching Yzerman fail in the playoffs, took the step to bring in guys that were tough to play against. Goodrow, Gourde, etc. excelled in the playoffs and had a lot to do with winning.

Lastly, if a Hawks GM made all the moves that Stevie Y had done over the last 24 months, he would be getting annihliated here.

Justin Holl contract............

And I gotta add to the conversation, I don't get the push back on Kurashev.

what does it hurt. If KD signs him to a 5 year 5 mil contract, I'll rip the move.

They are probably arguing right now if he gets 1.2 or 1.5 mil for a year or two.

I don't know if he'll ever be good enough, to play when they are good again, but I see a guy who battles, will fight for the puck on the boards.

Just don't get why its even a thing right now.

Now if you want to talk about why Reese Johnson taking a spot, i'll have that one.

If they go through a stretch where they win 3 cups in 6 years, this will happen again.

I still think think this move is not as some folks make it out to be, if Bickell doesn't get MS, not sure this is that big of a deal.

The TT trade, or any other player of his promise are going to be moved if you are good enough to win 3 cups.

The issue is you can trade them before there is a gun to your head, that seemingly was Stan's issue, waiting too long
- vabeachbear

IIRC the Hawks threw TT in to shed Bickell's salary...... And agreed, that's my point, you wanna move the players you must to be cap compliant before you're in cap hell so you don't lose your leverage and get fair value for the player instead of throwing players/prospects/picks in to make a trade.

That might be idealistic thinking though. Can you win a cup(s) moving players that make a difference a yr early?

I must be misremembering or confusing him with another top guy. Thought even Wiz commented on here about his skating just be average.

That said, watching Rags games, he never has really stood out to me, like a #1 overall pick. Not even sure I'd say he's even stood out as a 1st round pick.

Myself, I don't think they are at the point for this kind of move.
- vabeachbear

A number of people have commented on Lafreniere‘s skating so I’m thinking maybe there’s something to it? I just brought the 2020 scouting report to see if others had any other input.

As far as not being ready to make an offer sheet move on an RFA, I think if the right RFA were to be available, not suggesting Lafreniere is that guy, it would be the best time to make that move. What better way to build the core then by signing a young player who management has deemed a good fit? It’s not like a UFA signing of an older player who was identified as a missing piece of the puzzle. The right RFA could be an important piece down the road.

If they go through a stretch where they win 3 cups in 6 years, this will happen again.

I still think think this move is not as some folks make it out to be, if Bickell doesn't get MS, not sure this is that big of a deal.

The TT trade, or any other player of his promise are going to be moved if you are good enough to win 3 cups.

The issue is you can trade them before there is a gun to your head, that seemingly was Stan's issue, waiting too long
- vabeachbear

Exactly, just look at what Tampa has had to shed winning 2 cups, Goodroe, Coleman (who both were TDL acquisitions barely making over minimum) that were instrumental in the Lightnings first cup, McDonough, Colton, Killeen, T. Johnson. And they had to shed even with Stamkos team friendly deal.

IIRC the Hawks threw TT in to shed Bickell's salary...... And agreed, that's my point, you wanna move the players you must to be cap compliant before you're in cap hell so you don't lose your leverage and get fair value for the player instead of throwing players/prospects/picks in to make a trade.

That might be idealistic thinking though. Can you win a cup(s) moving players that make a difference a yr early?
- Mr Ricochet

As always, it depends on who you are able to replace them with. If the Hawks were able to find a guy (or ideally already have them in the pipeline) like Hagel to replace Sharp after 2015, that would have likely improved the outcomes.

Sadly, losing what Hammer and Hossa brought to the team in short order was likely the biggest accelerants to the demise (that and the overall quality of the defensemen).

Prepare to defend yourself. I do not keep score, but sometimes find it amusing, of the Stevie Y haters on this board. .... You will be asked to defend your love of Stevie Y.
- Mr Ricochet

Rico, what’s the point of this juvenile, absolutist, shut down the discussion type of post? Can’t someone disagree with how someone is doing something without being referred to, as something I’d expect from ten year old, as a hater? A hater? Really? That term isn’t meant for further discussion, it’s meant to shut the discussion down.

Yzerman has made some nice moves, he’s also made some questionable ones. Do you like the Justin Holl signing, three years at $3.4M with a no trade clause? What would your reaction have been had Bowman made this move? Right now I see the Yzerman led Red Wings as a fair team but no where near being a contender, with limited elte talent and who are pressing against the cap. From where I sit I think I must be a hater because I’m not seeing the Yzerman genius just yet.

Oh. But, do I remember wrong that Stevie Y got Stamkos to take a little less then Hedman, Kucherov and Point followed?...... If true it has been done.

But, I don't always think players are greedy they see their value to a team is seen by what they're paid. Same as feeling he's as valuable as Tavares and Marner and therefore wants the same salary as those guys and feels "disrespected" if not paid the same... Competitive guys both on and off the ice. And of course some guys just want as much money as they can get their hands on, and nothing wrong with that.

I will agree though, getting guys to take less is not a really a business model. Maybe doing so here and there would be helpful but certainly nothing to be counted on.

I wonder if you, or anyone else, thinks StanBowPops&McD overpaid Kane and Toews? I do and without researching it, and besides them winning cups, I don't think either of their numbers ever led the league in any given yr.

Yes, winning cups is all that matters so Kane and Toews were at the very least instrumental you still don't wanna overpay them, or anyone.
- Mr Ricochet

How much were Kane and Towes worth it to the Wirtz’s on the business side of it? Do you think Bedard’s drafting is worth it more to the Wirtz’s on the hockey side or the business side?

I don’t think fans are flocking to buy Reichel or Korchinski jersey’s, let alone driving a Chevy.

Exactly, just look at what Tampa has had to shed winning 2 cups, Goodroe, Coleman (who both were TDL acquisitions barely making over minimum) that were instrumental in the Lightnings first cup, McDonough, Colton, Killeen, T. Johnson. And they had to shed even with Stamkos team friendly deal.
- LAHawk

Indeed, this is why the price was so high for Hagel as he was locked up for three years at a very favorable $1.5M/yr. If he has another similar season, he may price himself out of TB as well depending on whether they bring Stamkos back and for how much.

Sharp only played 67 games spread over 3 years with Philly. Kurashev has played 191 games spread over 3 years in the NHL. He may get marginally better. But he pretty much is what he is.
- -Doh-

Yeah, that is why I prefaced with "I am NOT comparing the players". I'm just saying that players can be late bloomers. Hagel was a bit of a late bloomer. So was Sharp, and Hartman, and a slew of other players not on the Hawks.

If Kurashev finds his stride and plays solid D, and kicks in 30-35 pts, and you can lock him in at around $2M per year, then you don't have to find that guy later on. Especially now, when he's not blocking anyone from coming up. I get all the love for Katchouk and Anderson, but they are both 25, and are still searching for that ever-elusive consistency as well.