Oh. But, do I remember wrong that Stevie Y got Stamkos to take a little less then Hedman, Kucherov and Point followed?...... If true it has been done.

But, I don't always think players are greedy they see their value to a team is seen by what they're paid. Same as feeling he's as valuable as Tavares and Marner and therefore wants the same salary as those guys and feels "disrespected" if not paid the same... Competitive guys both on and off the ice. And of course some guys just want as much money as they can get their hands on, and nothing wrong with that.

I will agree though, getting guys to take less is not a really a business model. Maybe doing so here and there would be helpful but certainly nothing to be counted on.

I wonder if you, or anyone else, thinks StanBowPops&McD overpaid Kane and Toews? I do and without researching it, and besides them winning cups, I don't think either of their numbers ever led the league in any given yr.

Yes, winning cups is all that matters so Kane and Toews were at the very least instrumental you still don't wanna overpay them, or anyone.
- Mr Ricochet

The way I remember it SY couldn't offer what Toronto was offering to bring Stamkos back home to play hockey. But when Stamkos went to Toronto to check things out the team and the city went over the top with the sell job to get him to sign. SY thought he was a goner and was shocked when in the middle of the poop show recruitment that was going on in Toronto he got a call from Stamkos asking for his best offer and stating that he wanted to return to Tampa. Toronto scared him away. Stamkos eventually fell into the lap of SY.
Maybe one of our friends north of the border can dial all this in a bit for us.

How much were Kane and Towes worth it to the Wirtz’s on the business side of it? Do you think Bedard’s drafting is worth it more to the Wirtz’s on the hockey side or the business side?

I don’t think fans are flocking to buy Reichel or Korchinski jersey’s, let alone driving a Chevy.
- LAHawk

Maybe not but Kurashev sweaters are gonna be HUGE!!

I may be #1 on that list you don't keep score on


My beef is everyone always anoints him as a great GM, maybe the best, its odd to me that a guy who never has won as a GM gets anointed as the greatest. What other walk of life does that happen in????

Tampa, I'm sorry, but he never took the big swing when he needed to. Tampa didn't win until Brisbois, I'm assuming after watching Yzerman fail in the playoffs, took the step to bring in guys that were tough to play against. Goodrow, Gourde, etc. excelled in the playoffs and had a lot to do with winning.

Lastly, if a Hawks GM made all the moves that Stevie Y had done over the last 24 months, he would be getting annihliated here.

Justin Holl contract............ :?
- vabeachbear

Ben Chiarot and Andrew Copp's deals....

Rico, what’s the point of this juvenile, absolutist, shut down the discussion type of post? Can’t someone disagree with how someone is doing something without being referred to, as something I’d expect from ten year old, as a hater? A hater? Really? That term isn’t meant for further discussion, it’s meant to shut the discussion down.

Yzerman has made some nice moves, he’s also made some questionable ones. Do you like the Justin Holl signing, three years at $3.4M with a no trade clause? What would your reaction have been had Bowman made this move? Right now I see the Yzerman led Red Wings as a fair team but no where near being a contender, with limited elte talent and who are pressing against the cap. From where I sit I think I must be a hater because I’m not seeing the Yzerman genius just yet.
- paulr

Well yes. As a result of all this, you too are in fact...a hater.

I must be misremembering or confusing him with another top guy. Thought even Wiz commented on here about his skating just be average.

That said, watching Rags games, he never has really stood out to me, like a #1 overall pick. Not even sure I'd say he's even stood out as a 1st round pick.

Myself, I don't think they are at the point for this kind of move.
- vabeachbear

I have watched quite a few Rags games, while I do see some of the attributes that Wiz mentioned when AF was 18, to me he is an average skater, however at this point in the rebuild I would take him for the right price. As a 21 year old, he fits the narrative, and you have to bring in some young players along with draft picks, need a mixture of both. I do understand bringing in the vets that they did to help Bedard out, but going forward they need to focus on acquiring players <24 years old without necessarily mortgaging the future, but not impacting future success of the team. Some LD’s will be moved within the next couple of years, maybe one of them goes back to the Rangers as part the trade.

I have watched quite a few Rags games, while I do see some of the attributes that Wiz mentioned when AF was 18, to me he is an average skater, however at this point in the rebuild I would take him for the right price. As a 21 year old, he fits the narrative, and you have to bring in some young players along with draft picks, need a mixture of both. I do understand bringing in the vets that they did to help Bedard out, but going forward they need to focus on acquiring players <24 years old without not necessarily mortgaging the future, but not impacting future success of the team. Some LD’s will be moved within the next couple of years, maybe one of them goes back to the Rangers as part the trade.
- Angotti

For the right price (obviously stating the obvious), I would not be adverse to a trade for Lafreniere. You can't have all the same type of player. The bemoaning of Bickell's contract, why was the contract given in the first place? The Hawks had no one in the system that was a Bickell, a power forward (playoff bickell, and if it wasn't for how he played in the Minnesota series in 2015, i don't think the Hawks would of gotten past the Wild in that series). 2010, you had Ladd, Bickell was Ladd in 13 and somewhat 15.

Right now the Hawks don't have a Lafreniere type in their system. Maybe Colton Dach? I don't see Dach as a top 6 in the NHL.

Would rather have the Hawks go after a Lafreniere to "weaponize" cap space then to make another Zaitsev or even Jason Richardenson type of trade.

So providing context means you're a hater? In terms of the whole Stamkos taking less money scenario and how Yzerman got him to do it, I think it's worth mentioning that at the time Stamkos re-signed with the Lightning, their Core group had won nothing.

I think it's a little easier to convince a player to take less to keep the band together vs negotiating with players after they've won a Cup.

Not having to pay state taxes is worth mentioning as well.

The other poster mentioned how he's doing things in Detroit as a good model. It may be, but it remains to be seen. He pushed some of his chips in last Summer spending $$$ in FA and I think it could be argued that he might've jumped the gun a bit. I don't think they looked like a team ready to take a big step. They still finished in the bottom 10 in the league.

Edit - TBH, while trying to be fair and balanced, I am also a hater.
- HawkintheD

No, adding context does not make one a hater. In fact I very much appreciate context and nuance for most any subject. IMO very little, if anything, is black and white and quite frankly I didn't follow NHL hockey (boycotted Dollar Bill for 23 yrs) like some here so context is helpful to me.

As far as Stevie Y, I'm a fan. Not as much for his results but how he goes about his business. He's old school and conducts himself like a man. Just like that CAR coach, I like and respect his way...... And since he drafted one of my all time jrs favs, Robert Mastrosimone, I've lost the hate I had for Detroilet. I could not hate a team that kid played for but it looks like he's not gonna be an NHLer.

I do not post as much as many but believe I've posted I would never knock a person for his/her fandom so for whatever reason someone doesn't dig Stevie Y, or anyone/team, you'll get no pushback from me.

And I gotta add to the conversation, I don't get the push back on Kurashev.

what does it hurt. If KD signs him to a 5 year 5 mil contract, I'll rip the move.

They are probably arguing right now if he gets 1.2 or 1.5 mil for a year or two.

I don't know if he'll ever be good enough, to play when they are good again, but I see a guy who battles, will fight for the puck on the boards.

Just don't get why its even a thing right now.

Now if you want to talk about why Reese Johnson taking a spot, i'll have that one.
- vabeachbear

Before I read and then posted the article on breakout candidates by Dobber I posted Kurashev has the profile of a player who might breakout.

Good skater, shows some hands and flashes, has the coaches confidence to slide him up and down the lineup and as the article points out the kid is nearing the breakout number of games played at around the 250 games played mark.

And, as you point out what's the harm? Kid is not taking any top prospects NHL minutes and he just might become a legit NHLer if given a role and coached to it.

I have watched quite a few Rags games, while I do see some of the attributes that Wiz mentioned when AF was 18, to me he is an average skater, however at this point in the rebuild I would take him for the right price. As a 21 year old, he fits the narrative, and you have to bring in some young players along with draft picks, need a mixture of both. I do understand bringing in the vets that they did to help Bedard out, but going forward they need to focus on acquiring players <24 years old without not necessarily mortgaging the future, but not impacting future success of the team. Some LD’s will be moved within the next couple of years, maybe one of them goes back to the Rangers as part the trade.
- Angotti

Kurashev....

A number of people have commented on Lafreniere‘s skating so I’m thinking maybe there’s something to it? I just brought the 2020 scouting report to see if others had any other input.

As far as not being ready to make an offer sheet move on an RFA, I think if the right RFA were to be available, not suggesting Lafreniere is that guy, it would be the best time to make that move. What better way to build the core then by signing a young player who management has deemed a good fit? It’s not like a UFA signing of an older player who was identified as a missing piece of the puzzle. The right RFA could be an important piece down the road.
- paulr

This is a good time to bring this up. I know KD and Crew dig good skaters and are building the franchise with that identity, and that's great, but I hope they do not pass up good hockey players because they are below average skaters.

And as far as offer sheets hadn't thought much about it but for the right player it does make sense. They certainly have the draft capital and cap space. Adding what they think could be a major piece makes good sense.

Rico, what’s the point of this juvenile, absolutist, shut down the discussion type of post? Can’t someone disagree with how someone is doing something without being referred to, as something I’d expect from ten year old, as a hater? A hater? Really? That term isn’t meant for further discussion, it’s meant to shut the discussion down.

Yzerman has made some nice moves, he’s also made some questionable ones. Do you like the Justin Holl signing, three years at $3.4M with a no trade clause? What would your reaction have been had Bowman made this move? Right now I see the Yzerman led Red Wings as a fair team but no where near being a contender, with limited elte talent and who are pressing against the cap. From where I sit I think I must be a hater because I’m not seeing the Yzerman genius just yet.
- paulr

Wow. A 10 yr old, juvenile?!?! Too bad you feel that way from what I consider a not meant to be much post but since you do I won't try and change that.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess. VABear and Mo proudly stood up and said they were Wings haters and took the post in the spirit it was meant.

For the right price (obviously stating the obvious), I would not be adverse to a trade for Lafreniere. You can't have all the same type of player. The bemoaning of Bickell's contract, why was the contract given in the first place? The Hawks had no one in the system that was a Bickell, a power forward (playoff bickell, and if it wasn't for how he played in the Minnesota series in 2015, i don't think the Hawks would of gotten past the Wild in that series). 2010, you had Ladd, Bickell was Ladd in 13 and somewhat 15.

Right now the Hawks don't have a Lafreniere type in their system. Maybe Colton Dach? I don't see Dach as a top 6 in the NHL.

Would rather have the Hawks go after a Lafreniere to "weaponize" cap space then to make another Zaitsev or even Jason Richardenson type of trade.
- LAHawk

I agree with this, need power forwards especially in the playoffs. How much fun would it be if that guy was Marcel Marcel? That's the luxury of having all these draft picks you can take lots of swings at players who most likely won't be NHL players in later rounds the next 3-5 years

Wow. A 10 yr old, juvenile?!?! Too bad you feel that way from what I consider a not meant to be much post but since you do I won't try and change that.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess. VABear and Mo proudly stood up and said they were Wings haters and took the post in the spirit it was meant.
- Mr Ricochet

My gosh Rico when will you grow up, hahaha

How much were Kane and Towes worth it to the Wirtz’s on the business side of it? Do you think Bedard’s drafting is worth it more to the Wirtz’s on the hockey side or the business side?

I don’t think fans are flocking to buy Reichel or Korchinski jersey’s, let alone driving a Chevy.
- LAHawk

Kane and Toews were a huge part of changing this franchise but does that mean you overpay them? Would they have taken 9.5 mil per, think that still would have made them the highest paid NHLers, and if so would that extra 2 mil per allowed StanBow to squeeze out another cup?

One of the Dobber writer's review of the Hawks draft class. Also some comments on the players picked up via trade and free agency.

https://dobberprospects.c...in-32-chicago-blackhawks/

One of the Dobber writer review of the Hawks draft class. Also some comments on the players picked up via trade and free agency.

https://dobberprospects.c...in-32-chicago-blackhawks/
- boilermaker100

Good read, thanks for the link.

Kane and Toews were a huge part of changing this franchise but does that mean you overpay them? Would they have taken 9.5 mil per, think that still would have made them the highest paid NHLers, and if so would that extra 2 mil per allowed StanBow to squeeze out another cup?
- Mr Ricochet

I would love to say yes, but if history is any indication, likely not. Would extra $2M be enough to not have to launch Bickell, and to pay the piper when Hammer's team friendly deal ended, etc, etc? Ultimately, I think that money would be gobbled up rather quickly in other areas. Sure it would help some, but I would guess that it would not have made much of a difference.

However... I literally just said "I would guess", so what do I know.

If the Hawks give an offer sheet to LaFreniere it would like cost them only a 2nd round pick. Rangers probably would have to unload someone to match. I would take a run at him.
- -Doh-

Why make enemies when we have too many forwards already? We'll have guys coming down the pipe soon enough for others to go after.

Yes, but hopefully KD has learned the difference between cap hell and up against the cap. CAR for instance is a good team every yr but is not in cap hell. And of course now that LVG has won a cup their model has to be looked at. Always in cap hell but figuring it out as they go.
- Mr Ricochet

That was the Chicago model first for three cups and 7 years.

The only way to lock up the core, regardless of number and fill the team with quality depth is to convince everyone to sign for a smaller contract, beginning with the top player. If the top player can’t be convinced to take less to give the team its best chance to win, it will be difficult to get the remaining core to do likewise. And human nature being what it is, what chance do you think there is that that will happen?
- paulr

Saad's father talked him out of a home town discount multiple dynamics at play.

IIRC the Hawks threw TT in to shed Bickell's salary...... And agreed, that's my point, you wanna move the players you must to be cap compliant before you're in cap hell so you don't lose your leverage and get fair value for the player instead of throwing players/prospects/picks in to make a trade.

That might be idealistic thinking though. Can you win a cup(s) moving players that make a difference a yr early?
- Mr Ricochet

Bickell was in the last year of his contract and should have been bought out instead of throwing in TT to make his contract go away. Bowman chose to commit $3M to Kruger when he could have been replaced with a league minimum player. Not saying Kruger wasn't a valuable piece of the later Cup teams because he was, but he became an expensive, unaffordable luxury. Bowman chose to keep the plow horse over a (relative) thoroughbred. Coming after the horrible Danault trade at the '16 deadline, Bowman got rid of the only potential cheap offensive forward contributors in the system...

Well yes. As a result of all this, you too are in fact...a hater.
- HawkintheD

Stevie Y…the builder.

Kane and Toews were a huge part of changing this franchise but does that mean you overpay them? Would they have taken 9.5 mil per, think that still would have made them the highest paid NHLers, and if so would that extra 2 mil per allowed StanBow to squeeze out another cup?
- Mr Ricochet

A lot of factors outside of Kane and Toews’ mega deals hurt too. The Bickell deal was an overpay even if he stayed healthy. Danault for Weiss Fleischmann was a move Q wanted for veteran help, would’ve solved our 2C issue to keep Danault. If we didn’t overpay Bickell we could’ve kept Saad. Trading Panarin/Hammer were the final nails. The team got demonstrably worse for about $1M in cap savings.

Crawford lived up to his deal, but on a team with superstar players and big contracts, you can’t afford a $6M goalie.

The Seabrook deal was killer, but we’ve beaten that horse to death.

Sharp only played 67 games spread over 3 years with Philly. Kurashev has played 191 games spread over 3 years in the NHL. He may get marginally better. But he pretty much is what he is.
- -Doh-

Before Sharp there was Ken Hodge.

Wow. A 10 yr old, juvenile?!?! Too bad you feel that way from what I consider a not meant to be much post but since you do I won't try and change that.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess. VABear and Mo proudly stood up and said they were Wings haters and took the post in the spirit it was meant.
- Mr Ricochet

If I say, you said something stupid, is that the same as me calling you stupid? You intentionally Cherry picked my sentence to make it appear as if I called you a ten year old. I said the term ‘hater’ is something I’d expect from a ten year old. You used hater as a broad statement and completely meaningless in the context you used it. It appears it was meant to shut up anyone having anything negative to say about Yzerman.

So my point about Yzerman signing Justin Holl, do you agree it’s a questionable signing. And if you do agree, does that make you a ‘hater’?