Bill Meltzer: Flyers Gameday: 10/27/23 vs. ANA

yay early morning game

Torts is implying that Frost isn’t in the doghouse but he can’t get him in. That’s disingenuous. Teams see Frost as a bottom six, probably a 3C. They likely will get a depreciated asset at a low price. Yzerman was in a tough position with Drouin but he held out and got Sergachev. It will be interesting to see how Briere navigates this. If I’m Briere I’m pissed off with Torts devaluating an asset. Torts can get the most out of some but it’s always mitigated by his losing other players.

I think Torts likes his position, it’s win win. If he puts Frost back in and he struggles, then he was right to bench him. If he puts him in and he thrives, then Frost learned something. Torts is a piece of work.

Torts is implying that Frost isn’t in the doghouse but he can’t get him in. That’s disingenuous. Teams see Frost as a bottom six, probably a 3C. They likely will get a depreciated asset at a low price. Yzerman was in a tough position with Drouin but he held out and got Sergachev. It will be interesting to see how Briere navigates this. If I’m Briere I’m pissed off with Torts devaluating an asset. Torts can get the most out of some but it’s always mitigated by his losing other players.

I think Torts likes his position, it’s win win. If he puts Frost back in and he struggles, then he was right to bench him. If he puts him in and he thrives, then Frost learned something. Torts is a piece of work.
- Minnyhock

Frost is what he is. Folks are saying that Torts is devaluing him, but is Frost really a 2C at the NHL level? I think he is a 3C on a good team. His faceoff % is pathetic. I want Frost back in too, and I wish they would take ND out (he's too slow to keep up with the play anymore) and put Laughts on the 4th line to get Frost back in. That being said, let's not over value Frost. He had a good second half of last season, but 4 months don't make a career. This isn't Hayes where they HAD to trade him and eat salary because of the bad contract that Chuckles gave him. Frost actually has a workable contract and I think Briere can get a fair deal here if a trade must be worked out.

What's with the early season day games? I hate day games and the Flyers always seem to come out sluggish. Their only true clunker this season to date was that 1PM start in Ottawa.

Frost is what he is. Folks are saying that Torts is devaluing him, but is Frost really a 2C at the NHL level? I think he is a 3C on a good team. His faceoff % is pathetic. I want Frost back in too, and I wish they would take ND out (he's too slow to keep up with the play anymore) and put Laughts on the 4th line to get Frost back in. That being said, let's not over value Frost. He had a good second half of last season, but 4 months don't make a career. This isn't Hayes where they HAD to trade him and eat salary because of the bad contract that Chuckles gave him. Frost actually has a workable contract and I think Briere can get a fair deal here if a trade must be worked out.

It was his first real full NHL season and he led the team in scoring over the last 55 games of the season. What more do you want from basically a rookie on a bad team? 4 months don't make a career, and neither does 2 games. He was impressive last year and he DID earn the right to work through a slow start.
Hayes contract wasn't that bad for what he brought to the table. Hayes was tradeable for at least a decent return with money held, until Torts did Torts and screwed with him, his on ice time and his performance.They got as little as they did for Hayes because of Torts, no because of Kevin Hayes or his contract.
Why is that so hard for some to see?

It was his first real full NHL season and he led the team in scoring over the last 55 games of the season. What more do you want from basically a rookie on a bad team? 4 months don't make a career, and neither does 2 games. He was impressive last year and he DID earn the right to work through a slow start.
Hayes contract wasn't that bad for what he brought to the table. Hayes was tradeable for at least a decent return with money held, until Torts did Torts and screwed with him, his on ice time and his performance.They got as little as they did for Hayes because of Torts, no because of Kevin Hayes or his contract.
Why is that so hard for some to see?
- TheFreak

I disagree about Hayes. Yes, Torts probably did them no favors the way he handled the situation, but they were NEVER going to get that much for Hayes. The league knows that he is a big guy that plays a soft game and that he was paid well beyond the pay grade that he should have been getting. I do agree about Frost to a point. I don't think he should have been scratched after two games and he should be back in there now. Again though, I don't see him as a top six forward on a good team as of yet and I don't know that he will ever by a 2C on a good team at the NHL level. I guess we both agree that he should be playing, so there is that.

I just looked up Hayes' stats with the Blues. He has 2 assists in seven games and is a +1 with 4 whole hits. I knew the marriage between he and Torts would be a short one when Torts was hired.

I hated the Hayes signing when it happened...too long and for too much for the wrong player. But a big center putting up 50 points is worth at least $5 per. That's why I said decent return with salary held. Now, I don't mean a first, prospect and pick...I mean like a second round pick for Hayes and $2million retained.
We got what? a 6th round pick for 50% retained. That is squarely on Torts.

Frost is what he is. Folks are saying that Torts is devaluing him, but is Frost really a 2C at the NHL level? I think he is a 3C on a good team. His faceoff % is pathetic. I want Frost back in too, and I wish they would take ND out (he's too slow to keep up with the play anymore) and put Laughts on the 4th line to get Frost back in. That being said, let's not over value Frost. He had a good second half of last season, but 4 months don't make a career. This isn't Hayes where they HAD to trade him and eat salary because of the bad contract that Chuckles gave him. Frost actually has a workable contract and I think Briere can get a fair deal here if a trade must be worked out.
- Phillywhiteout

Speaking of disingenuous. It cracks me up that you go right to faceoff%. Based on a 2 game sample. While ignoring an 81 game sample from last season where he was at 45.9%. While not great, that's not pathetic. He had a higher percentage last year than Noah Cates did. Cates was at 39.5% for the season. He was only slightly lower that Scott Laughton.
Now as far as the 4 months don't make a career. When you're a young player who has only played 160 NHL games. 4 months is a pretty large chunk of time. It's also been more than 4 months. Whenever Frost is used properly, he produces.

I disagree about Hayes. Yes, Torts probably did them no favors the way he handled the situation, but they were NEVER going to get that much for Hayes. The league knows that he is a big guy that plays a soft game and that he was paid well beyond the pay grade that he should have been getting. I do agree about Frost to a point. I don't think he should have been scratched after two games and he should be back in there now. Again though, I don't see him as a top six forward on a good team as of yet and I don't know that he will ever by a 2C on a good team at the NHL level. I guess we both agree that he should be playing, so there is that.

I just looked up Hayes' stats with the Blues. He has 2 assists in seven games and is a +1 with 4 whole hits. I knew the marriage between he and Torts would be a short one when Torts was hired.
- Phillywhiteout

You missed the point. It was never that they were going to get "that much" with Hayes. Whatever that means. It was that they would've been in a stronger position and received better value then they did. If Tortorella didn't screw with Hayes.

I hated the Hayes signing when it happened...too long and for too much for the wrong player. But a big center putting up 50 points is worth at least $5 per. That's why I said decent return with salary held. Now, I don't mean a first, prospect and pick...I mean like a second round pick for Hayes and $2million retained.
We got what? a 6th round pick for 50% retained. That is squarely on Torts.
- TheFreak

Completely agree and if this kind of thing keeps happening and the GM allows it to keep happening. It's going to be on the GM also.

fried up some spam. hits the spot every once in a long while

Speaking of disingenuous. It cracks me up that you go right to faceoff%. Based on a 2 game sample. While ignoring an 81 game sample from last season where he was at 45.9%. While not great, that's not pathetic. He had a higher percentage last year than Noah Cates did. Cates was at 39.5% for the season. He was only slightly lower that Scott Laughton.
Now as far as the 4 months don't make a career. When you're a young player who has only played 160 NHL games. 4 months is a pretty large chunk of time. It's also been more than 4 months. Whenever Frost is used properly, he produces.
- MJL

the good ole lets bring up cates when discussing frostky. As far as the face off % did cates face tougher matchups in those?

Since you want to compare the 2, based on draft position who has exceeded expectations?

You missed the point. It was never that they were going to get "that much" with Hayes. Whatever that means. It was that they would've been in a stronger position and received better value then they did. If Tortorella didn't screw with Hayes.
- MJL

seeing who was bought out over the summer and what their value was, this may not be true. While I do not like the deal seems danny boy may have did just fine.

so what better value could they have received do you think? Provide some details.

I hated the Hayes signing when it happened...too long and for too much for the wrong player. But a big center putting up 50 points is worth at least $5 per. That's why I said decent return with salary held. Now, I don't mean a first, prospect and pick...I mean like a second round pick for Hayes and $2million retained.
We got what? a 6th round pick for 50% retained. That is squarely on Torts.
- TheFreak

They were never gonna get that return. I thought they would get a solid return on 50% retention. The landscape changed with who was bought out and that hurt Hayes value as well. Now that doesn't excuse the head coach.

I would have kept Hayes another year. Where they Flyers are at that wouldn't have hurt at all.

Spitballing here; what if Briere does decide to trade Frost, and receives fair value (based on the last half of last season)?... I believe the Flyers would have to receive back prospect/picks(s) lest they be right back to where they are presently with Frost riding the press box.

And what happens when the inevitable injury(s) happens at forward... and they have to dip into the then weakened depth pool?

What if Briere gets back a legitimate top 6 forward... does Torts then play him, and Danny sends one of the forwards back to LV... or one sits and pauses his growth?

I suppose the Flyers are now between a rock and hard place with the team playing well... and we'll together... and leery to change the lineup to insert Frost. I imagine patience would be in play; await a cooling and fall in play... or an injury... keep Frost as sharp as possible, with a possible conditioning trip to the Phantoms, down the road... and bide their time until they can change the lineup to include Frost... and hope it works itself out... OR, Briere gets an offer he can't refuse, and pulls the trigger... and Torts has a new problem to solve, or issue to deal with.

So many 'ifs'. 🤔

Spitballing here; what if Briere does decide to trade Frost, and receives fair value (based on the last half of last season)?... I believe the Flyers would have to receive back prospect/picks(s) lest they be right back to where they are presently with Frost riding the press box.

And what happens when the inevitable injury(s) happens at forward... and they have to dip into the then weakened depth pool?

What if Briere gets back a legitimate top 6 forward... does Torts then play him, and Danny sends one of the forwards back to LV... or one sits and pauses his growth?

I suppose the Flyers are now between a rock and hard place with the team playing well... and we'll together... and leery to change the lineup to insert Frost. I imagine patience would be in play; await a cooling and fall in play... or an injury... keep Frost as sharp as possible, with a possible conditioning trip to the Phantoms, down the road... and bide their time until they can change the lineup to include Frost... and hope it works itself out... OR, Briere gets an offer he can't refuse, and pulls the trigger... and Torts has a new problem to solve, or issue to deal with.

So many 'ifs'. 🤔
- ForeverFlyer16

just trade Laughton and problem solved
Source: Captain Obvious

Figure on a pretty solid tilt between Nicky D -who I still miss in Anaheim- and Big Boss Ross.

I hope Leo plays today... we are a completely different team with the kid in the lineup.. he's the real deal.

Should be a good game.

Spitballing here; what if Briere does decide to trade Frost, and receives fair value (based on the last half of last season)?... I believe the Flyers would have to receive back prospect/picks(s) lest they be right back to where they are presently with Frost riding the press box.

And what happens when the inevitable injury(s) happens at forward... and they have to dip into the then weakened depth pool?

What if Briere gets back a legitimate top 6 forward... does Torts then play him, and Danny sends one of the forwards back to LV... or one sits and pauses his growth?

I suppose the Flyers are now between a rock and hard place with the team playing well... and we'll together... and leery to change the lineup to insert Frost. I imagine patience would be in play; await a cooling and fall in play... or an injury... keep Frost as sharp as possible, with a possible conditioning trip to the Phantoms, down the road... and bide their time until they can change the lineup to include Frost... and hope it works itself out... OR, Briere gets an offer he can't refuse, and pulls the trigger... and Torts has a new problem to solve, or issue to deal with.

So many 'ifs'. 🤔
- ForeverFlyer16

They're really not between a rock and hard place. This team's main focus should be on rebuilding for the future. Focus on that and the decisions are easy to make.

Figure on a pretty solid tilt between Nicky D -who I still miss in Anaheim- and Big Boss Ross.

I hope Leo plays today... we are a completely different team with the kid in the lineup.. he's the real deal.

Should be a good game.
- dozerD10

Anaheim had an impressive late comeback win against Boston last night. They’ve got some nice pieces. Should be a good game.

You missed the point. It was never that they were going to get "that much" with Hayes. Whatever that means. It was that they would've been in a stronger position and received better value then they did. If Tortorella didn't screw with Hayes.
- MJL

Did Torts screw with Hayes or did Hayes handle his benching like a big baby? Torts benched TK and Hayes for the third period in the same game. One handled it like a man and has exceled since that benching while the other sulked like a little boy. Hayes is soft and Torts hates soft players, and I have no problem with that! This team played a SOFT game for years, and they aren't playing that way anymore and it's a pleasure to watch! And I'm not talking about guys like ND. I'm talking about the team playing harder shift for shift! This team also seems to be having fun and there is a good atmosphere in the room. Torts took out the trash...Hayes, Angelo and Provorov. Frost is gonna get his chance again and he needs to buck up or he is going to be left behind! I hope Frost makes it, but he needs to get out there and play hard like the rest of the team. Thanks!

These afternoon games, no matter what season, have usually ended in a loss.
I may be wrong but I feel like I'm not wrong

These afternoon games, no matter what season, have usually ended in a loss.
I may be wrong but I feel like I'm not wrong
- Bob Habib

I feel like you aren't wrong either. I don't know if it's fact or not, but they seem to suck in day games. Their only clunker this season was a day game.

Did Torts screw with Hayes or did Hayes handle his benching like a big baby? Torts benched TK and Hayes for the third period in the same game. One handled it like a man and has exceled since that benching while the other sulked like a little boy. Hayes is soft and Torts hates soft players, and I have no problem with that! This team played a SOFT game for years, and they aren't playing that way anymore and it's a pleasure to watch! And I'm not talking about guys like ND. I'm talking about the team playing harder shift for shift! This team also seems to be having fun and there is a good atmosphere in the room. Torts took out the trash...Hayes, Angelo and Provorov.
- Phillywhiteout

You seem to be confused. It's not about a one period benching. Hayes was having a career offensive season. Made the all star team. Was having a strong season when Tortorella decided to mess with him and demoted him to the 3rd line. Cut his ice time and his PP time. Not just for one period of a game. Announced to the hockey world that we don't want this guy anymore. Instead of realizing that by continuing to play him more and let him continue on his career offensive season and increase his value. Doesn't matter if he is soft or not.
Tortorella should've been a used car salesman. That's his true calling. He has so many fans buying into working harder and playing harder shift by shift. That's the current selling point and many are buying into it hook line and sinker. I find watching a skilled, talented quality team who is in contention for the cup pleasurable to watch. The issue with the Flyers has never been about being soft, not playing hard, issues in the locker room and all that other nonsense. The Flyers issue has been about skill and talent.

I hated the Hayes signing when it happened...too long and for too much for the wrong player. But a big center putting up 50 points is worth at least $5 per. That's why I said decent return with salary held. Now, I don't mean a first, prospect and pick...I mean like a second round pick for Hayes and $2million retained.
We got what? a 6th round pick for 50% retained. That is squarely on Torts.
- TheFreak

Agree 100%
With half salary retained hayes was more valuable than a 6th rd pick and he was only worth the 6th because of torts.
He was on pace for career highs, which would have helped to raise his value at the TDL