He’s no $13+ mill guy when he’s only 0.87PPG in the post season.

Other teams can focus more deeply on the leafs game style in the post season and other than a couple decent years Marner has been owned in the post season. Nylander is 0.8PPG in the post season so imo, until Marner proves he’s significantly better than that in the playoffs, he’s only worth about $12 as I’ve always said, and that’s a big if when it comes to choosing if he’s even worth keeping.

If he steps up huge this post season under the new coach, then sure, give him a Matthews-like offer, but otherwise no thanks.
- Dozzer

What is this? I have never said he deserves $13m. I have said that Leaf fans need to stop poopting on the guy when he has been their team's leading playoff point producer and plays in all roles. I also didn't like how he played last year and didn't like how he played in the Florida series. I'm still positive he was injured (not seriously enough to "have to play through it", but enough to make him shy away from contact) against Florida and I also think more than his ankle sprain was causing him problems against Boston. Two recent defeats in the playoffs have been laid at Mitch Marner's feet and he doesn't deserve that.

That is my point. I think $12m is probably a fair number for him if Nylander is getting $11.5m.

*sigh*

Matthews has 48 points in 55 games which is 0.87.
Marner has 50 points in 57 games which is 0.88.
Nylander has 43 points in 54 games which is 0.8
Tavares has 24 points in 38 games which is 0.63

I would still like the top 3 to be over 1.
- Monkeypunk

Yup, I stand corrected and hit Matthews for 54 games by mistake, thanks for the correction.

However even Marner is getting rounded up while Matthews gets rounded down by you. They’re the same if they get rounded the same way, I don’t really think the 4 1000s of a point matters that much.

I also think the majority of Marner’s points are due to Matthews.

And he gets owned physically big time, until he proves he’s different in the post season I simply don’t want him resigned.

*sigh*

Matthews has 48 points in 55 games which is 0.87.
Marner has 50 points in 57 games which is 0.88.
Nylander has 43 points in 54 games which is 0.8
Tavares has 24 points in 38 games which is 0.63

I would still like the top 3 to be over 1.
- Monkeypunk

These numbers are all good and fine, and Mitchy puts up a f@ck tonne of assists, (some of them absolute beauties), but how many of those points are secondary assists where he just happened to be the third last guy to touch the puck? Assists are not as valuable as goals.

What is this? I have never said he deserves $13m. I have said that Leaf fans need to stop poopting on the guy when he has been their team's leading playoff point producer and plays in all roles. I also didn't like how he played last year and didn't like how he played in the Florida series. I'm still positive he was injured (not seriously enough to "have to play through it", but enough to make him shy away from contact) against Florida and I also think more than his ankle sprain was causing him problems against Boston. Two recent defeats in the playoffs have been laid at Mitch Marner's feet and he doesn't deserve that.

That is my point. I think $12m is probably a fair number for him if Nylander is getting $11.5m.
- Monkeypunk

That’s all I’m saying… a $12 mill guy for sure… my posts were simply calling the guy who thinks he’s worth $13+ million a dippoop lol and I know that wasn’t you

Literally no one hates this guy. Unfacking real player. But when are you going to stop ignoring the fact that the guy shrivels up more than your tiny a$$ pecker in a Pickle Lake polar plunge every single year in the playoffs? I don't give AF about his PTS/gm vs other players, I care about what he's doing in games 5-7 when the series is on the line and teams ramp things to another level.

I'll be the first guy to admit I'm wrong if Mitchy baby carries us deep this year, but he hasn't done fack all for us EVER. I don't give a $hit about the Tampa series, that was an absolute barnburner with all offense from both teams, and everyone was able to pile up a bunch of points. That type of series is VERY rare in the playoffs.
- Whipper

Well. Look who doesn't have Twitter!

That's half of where my indignation about people piling on Marner comes from. There's a lot of hate for Marner out there.

And as much as everyone hates him, his points/game in clinching games is lower, but it's not as drastic as everyone makes out:

What is this? I have never said he deserves $13m. I have said that Leaf fans need to stop poopting on the guy when he has been their team's leading playoff point producer and plays in all roles. I also didn't like how he played last year and didn't like how he played in the Florida series. I'm still positive he was injured (not seriously enough to "have to play through it", but enough to make him shy away from contact) against Florida and I also think more than his ankle sprain was causing him problems against Boston. Two recent defeats in the playoffs have been laid at Mitch Marner's feet and he doesn't deserve that.

That is my point. I think $12m is probably a fair number for him if Nylander is getting $11.5m.
- Monkeypunk

I think most people, myself included, can see the writing on the wall. Mitch is going to get some insanely high number for 8 years and our opinions are based on that assumption. I've said before, I will HAPPILY pay Mitch up to $13M x 8 with where the cap is going, he's a hell of a player that brings a lot to the team. But with the news of the cap jumping significantly the next two years, I suspect Mitch and his team are going to expect a HUGE raise. The only thing that matters to me are the playoffs, and I don't want $15M+ tied up with a guy who can't produce in the tough games where he has no room to work. Take away his space, take away his game.

Well. Look who doesn't have Twitter!

That's half of where my indignation about people piling on Marner comes from. There's a lot of hate for Marner out there.

And as much as everyone hates him, his points/game in clinching games is lower, but it's not as drastic as everyone makes out:


- Monkeypunk

I think most people who seem to hate MM are very much going to change their tune if he's a $12M player.

Yup, I stand corrected and hit Matthews for 54 games by mistake, thanks for the correction.

However even Marner is getting rounded up while Matthews gets rounded down by you. They’re the same if they get rounded the same way, I don’t really think the 4 1000s of a point matters that much.

I also think the majority of Marner’s points are due to Matthews.

And he gets owned physically big time, until he proves he’s different in the post season I simply don’t want him resigned.
- Dozzer

Meh. Difference of opinions, I guess.

I think the majority of Matthews' goals are because of Marner. Last night is a decent example of that. Marner makes players around him better - it's why he's so well liked by other players in the league. Matthews is an elite talent, but giving him an elite passer is just an excellent combination.

He does get punished physically. So does Matthews and Tavares. Slick Willy manages to not get hit that much, which is good - because just like the other three - I've seen Willy take a big hit early and he's disengaged for the rest of the game.

But I really do think this year, this team, has more support for each other and that will hopefully translate into a better performance. I said above - there's a lot of times with Keefe's Leafs you'd see the post whistle pushy-shovey crap happen and half the team was sauntering off the ice rather than supporting their teammate. You want to give your smaller players more backbone, you need to have their back.

Well. Look who doesn't have Twitter!

That's half of where my indignation about people piling on Marner comes from. There's a lot of hate for Marner out there.

And as much as everyone hates him, his points/game in clinching games is lower, but it's not as drastic as everyone makes out:


- Monkeypunk

the rounding on this makes it looks a little better for the MM argument.

his ppg is .65 (not .7)
Matthews is .72 etc

but in non elimiation games, Marner produces at 82 points /82 and in elimination games that drops to 53

I think most people, myself included, can see the writing on the wall. Mitch is going to get some insanely high number for 8 years and our opinions are based on that assumption. I've said before, I will HAPPILY pay Mitch up to $13M x 8 with where the cap is going, he's a hell of a player that brings a lot to the team. But with the news of the cap jumping significantly the next two years, I suspect Mitch and his team are going to expect a HUGE raise. The only thing that matters to me are the playoffs, and I don't want $15M+ tied up with a guy who can't produce in the tough games where he has no room to work. Take away his space, take away his game.
- Whipper

And so we're all on the same page - I have no problem with the team waiting for Mitch to put up show-me numbers in the playoffs before they negotiate a contract. It's not like his number is going to get higher because he produces in the playoffs. It's already going to be obscene.

If he doesn't step up, like I think he will, or he's obviously not engaged - then maybe you trade his negotiating rights early.

***Wedgie checks scoreboard: Leafs won last night. Wedgie smiles****

***Wedgie checks standings: Leafs sit atop their division. Wedgie smiles***

***Wedgie checks Hockeybuzz Leafs thread: so much anger. Wedgie gets puzzled look on his face***

I think most people, myself included, can see the writing on the wall. Mitch is going to get some insanely high number for 8 years and our opinions are based on that assumption. I've said before, I will HAPPILY pay Mitch up to $13M x 8 with where the cap is going, he's a hell of a player that brings a lot to the team. But with the news of the cap jumping significantly the next two years, I suspect Mitch and his team are going to expect a HUGE raise. The only thing that matters to me are the playoffs, and I don't want $15M+ tied up with a guy who can't produce in the tough games where he has no room to work. Take away his space, take away his game.
- Whipper

the Mitch stuff started when he got the 10.9 ...immediately it felt like it was too much based on every other comp player at the time. Leafs got raked

add on to that, the leafs have done (frank) all since.

I also dont think people hate mitch so much as its frustrating, taking an extra 1-2 mil (what its perceived as at the time) has really handcuffed the team from getting him help.

i dont think its all that earth shattering and crazy to understand the fans frustration. rartional or not

the rounding on this makes it looks a little better for the MM argument.

his ppg is .65 (not .7)
Matthews is .72 etc

but in non elimiation games, Marner produces at 82 points /82 and in elimination games that drops to 53
- senstroll

When did not getting to the point where you're in an elimination game stop mattering though? I mean the other team is still bloody well playing in the playoffs in games 1-4.

Marner also leads the team in game-winning goals in series clinching games.

In Clinching games the Leafs have a 9.3% Power play efficiency. In non-clinching games that's 19.5%.

The opposition has a 26.6% power play in non-clinching games and 23.3% in clinching games.

In clinching games we've been outscored 10-4 on special teams; in non-clinching we've been outscored 33-24.

There's a whole team element to these collapses. I'm not saying Marner isn't culpable - he's absolutely been a part of the problem - but he isn't the only one to blame.

***Wedgie checks scoreboard: Leafs won last night. Wedgie smiles****

***Wedgie checks standings: Leafs sit atop their division. Wedgie smiles***

***Wedgie checks Hockeybuzz Leafs thread: so much anger. Wedgie gets puzzled look on his face***
- Atomic Wedgie

WHY CAN'T WE WIN EVERY GAME 10-0?!?!?!?

the Mitch stuff started when he got the 10.9 ...immediately it felt like it was too much based on every other comp player at the time. Leafs got raked

add on to that, the leafs have done (frank) all since.

I also dont think people hate mitch so much as its frustrating, taking an extra 1-2 mil (what its perceived as at the time) has really handcuffed the team from getting him help.

i dont think its all that earth shattering and crazy to understand the fans frustration. rartional or not
- senstroll

I mean that's sensible. John Tavares has been paid more than Marner and has also produced at a poor rate when it matters. People are mad 'cos he's slow. He puts up 22 points in 24 games and everyone is ecstatic. Marner puts up 36 in 24 games and they better not sign him!

You get my point? The fan's rage is misdirected.

FFS - this place was chugging along pretty well for quite some time, then suddenly we have pages and pages of bullpoop about people only being allowed to love or hate Marner again & having to defend their opinions because someone (singular) keeps posting stupid BS about Marner just to stir the pot?

Wonder why that is? What changed?

Marner is not the best player on the Leafs, nor in the world, nowhere close to it in fact.

Marner does not deserve to make more than Matthews FFS, no shot, rising cap or not.

Matthews does not need Marner to be successful, he's proven that in the past playing with Willy or Domi etc.

Marner may not need Matthews to be successful he's proven that for what 15 regular season games or so? Show that to me in the playoffs Mitchell and then perhaps we can have a conversation about if you are worth more than what Willy makes or what AM gets paid or not.

This is why playing MM and AM together is stupid. Keep them on seperate lines and spread out the threats, making it harder for teams to defend against them.

Until then keep doing what you have done the past 15 or so games, carry that into the playoffs and LEAD this (frank)ing team to a deep playoff run. YES LEAD you have the A on your sweater for a reason.

Same for Matthews, JT and Reilly who have an letter on their jersey - LEAD THIS (frank)ING TEAM TO A DEEP RUN, NOW.

The only one of these guys who has actually done that is JT who as someone else pointed out scored the goal to get them to the 2nd round. Once.

Side note - Nylander's statement that someone posted on here a few days ago speaks volumes on how much he wants to win here. Has anyone every heard Marner or even Matthews say something that raw about that topic? I have never seen or heard anything like that and it's a shame because reading it as a Leafs fan, how could you not say "(frank) yes Willy, we are with you"?

the Mitch stuff started when he got the 10.9 ...immediately it felt like it was too much based on every other comp player at the time. Leafs got raked

- senstroll

This is a very good point, and something I didn't even realize till you mentioned it. It's not only dreading what his future contract might be, it's a lot of resentment over the value of his last. His contract, and to a bigger extent, JTs, really did hurt the teams ability to build a winner.

***Wedgie checks scoreboard: Leafs won last night. Wedgie smiles****

***Wedgie checks standings: Leafs sit atop their division. Wedgie smiles***

***Wedgie checks Hockeybuzz Leafs thread: so much anger. Wedgie gets puzzled look on his face***
- Atomic Wedgie

There is a singular source for the anger and arguments on here right now Wedgie....it's so (frank)ing sad but it is what it is.

I mean that's sensible. John Tavares has been paid more than Marner and has also produced at a poor rate when it matters. People are mad 'cos he's slow. He puts up 22 points in 24 games and everyone is ecstatic. Marner puts up 36 in 24 games and they better not sign him!

You get my point? The fan's rage is misdirected.
- Monkeypunk

The difference is JT is going to take a HUGE pay cut, and Marner is likely looking for a big raise.

Apples and oranges, though. COMPLETELY different situations. Hopefully, JT takes a minimum $6M haircut, and Mitch gets a $2M raise.

When did not getting to the point where you're in an elimination game stop mattering though? I mean the other team is still bloody well playing in the playoffs in games 1-4.

Marner also leads the team in game-winning goals in series clinching games.

In Clinching games the Leafs have a 9.3% Power play efficiency. In non-clinching games that's 19.5%.

The opposition has a 26.6% power play in non-clinching games and 23.3% in clinching games.

In clinching games we've been outscored 10-4 on special teams; in non-clinching we've been outscored 33-24.

There's a whole team element to these collapses. I'm not saying Marner isn't culpable - he's absolutely been a part of the problem - but he isn't the only one to blame.
- Monkeypunk

Wouldn't that be Tavares with 1?

I mean that's sensible. John Tavares has been paid more than Marner and has also produced at a poor rate when it matters. People are mad 'cos he's slow. He puts up 22 points in 24 games and everyone is ecstatic. Marner puts up 36 in 24 games and they better not sign him!

You get my point? The fan's rage is misdirected.
- Monkeypunk

the thing with JT, if you look at any of the big moments for the Leafs since he arrived, he is usually involved or on the ice contributing somehow to the win.

JT had gotten hate for a good chunk of the hate as well

The difference is JT is going to take a HUGE pay cut, and Marner is likely looking for a big raise.

Apples and oranges, though. COMPLETELY different situations. Hopefully, JT takes a minimum $6M haircut, and Mitch gets a $2M raise.
- Whipper

I think mitch is now 13.5

I dont particularity care how much that they make. I just want my team to be able to build a winner. and thats the reality...the more the top few take, the weaker the bottom gets

Wouldn't that be Tavares with 1?
- Atomic Wedgie

I'm guessing he meant points?

Marner does not deserve to make more than Matthews FFS, no shot, rising cap or not.
- Cush29

I'm not saying I completely disagree with this statement, but I do think it's fair if someone thinks Marner is better than Matthews.

Over the past five years, their ppg is nearly identical.

One's a goal scorer, one's a playmaker.

Mitch is probably a little better at the PK.

Wouldn't that be Tavares with 1?
- Atomic Wedgie

Not series winning. Any game where a series can be clinched would be a series clinching game - so basically any time one team or the other has 3 wins.

Marner scored the GWG against Florida in 2023 when we were down 3-0; he also scored in 2018 against Boston when we were down 3-2 to push it to game 7.

JT scored the winner against Tampa in 2023.

Nylander scored in game 6 against Boston last year to push it to game 7.

Matthews scored in game 4 against Columbus to push that one to game 5.

I mean the fact that this is such a short list and easy to compile is painful.