The pedantics on this discussion are really annoying. (frank) all of these female genitalias. Look at MacKinnon, Crosby, OV, McDavid, Kucherov, Draisaitl etc. Who cares who did slightly better on a team where all of the 45 million dollars circles various drains of ineptitude in the playoffs? I just want one elite performance by the elite paid players once. Even if they lose. I want to see them do it.

8 goals and 15 points in a 14 game playoff season. That type of thing. I don't even need something stupid like MacKinnon getting 25 in 15.

Literally no one hates this guy. Unfacking real player. But when are you going to stop ignoring the fact that the guy shrivels up more than your tiny a$$ pecker in a Pickle Lake polar plunge every single year in the playoffs? I don't give AF about his PTS/gm vs other players, I care about what he's doing in games 5-7 when the series is on the line and teams ramp things to another level.

I'll be the first guy to admit I'm wrong if Mitchy baby carries us deep this year, but he hasn't done fack all for us EVER. I don't give a $hit about the Tampa series, that was an absolute barnburner with all offense from both teams, and everyone was able to pile up a bunch of points. That type of series is VERY rare in the playoffs.
- Whipper

That is absolutely not true. So many whine about him.

Ah so you dont care about the series where he helped the leafs get to the second and then was the main reason they won their only game in the 2nd round? Convenient.
IF you feel the above about Marner, then why dont you feel the above about Matthews? Kinda the same results.

Matthews has yet to prove that and he got paid
- Fakepartofme

I won't disagree with you but that doesn't mean the Leafs should overpay Marner too (assuming you are hinting that Matthews got overpaid).

Marner WAS overpaid on his last deal to make up for Uncle Lou being a crusty (frank) and not giving Marner what he should have got, but they can't make that same mistake again and overpay on this contract.

Let's hope none of it matters and Marner gets paid the same as AM after the 2 of them combine to go on a tear in the playoffs right up to and including the Cup finals and bring Lord Stanley home.

Matthews from Marner for the cup winning goal would be insanely awesome.

I dont understand why we cant like and appreciate the trio of Marner, Nylander and Matthews. Why the hate? They are the most valuable puzzle pieces on the team. We need all three to play to their potential in hopes of, you know, winning.
Why single a guy out on the team you cheer for and poop on him no matter what? Makes no sense to me.

I dont remember Leaf fans doing this with Gilmour, Andreychuk and Clark. We just wanted them to WIN>

The Capitals have a date Friday night baby WOOOOOOOOOOOO

Then we're gonna (frank) Dubas in the ass Saturday

GO LEAFS GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

The pedantics on this discussion are really annoying. (frank) all of these female genitalias. Look at MacKinnon, Crosby, OV, McDavid, Kucherov, Draisaitl etc. Who cares who did slightly better on a team where all of the 45 million dollars circles various drains of ineptitude in the playoffs? I just want one elite performance by the elite paid players once. Even if they lose. I want to see them do it.

8 goals and 15 points in a 14 game playoff season. That type of thing. I don't even need something stupid like MacKinnon getting 25 in 15.
- AdamFrench

I couldn't agree with this more if I had a gun to my head. All these MF's who are making the big $'s need to deliver plain and simple regardless of the name on the back of the jersey.

FFS - this place was chugging along pretty well for quite some time, then suddenly we have pages and pages of bullpoop about people only being allowed to love or hate Marner again & having to defend their opinions because someone (singular) keeps posting stupid BS about Marner just to stir the pot?

Wonder why that is? What changed?

Marner is not the best player on the Leafs, nor in the world, nowhere close to it in fact.

Marner does not deserve to make more than Matthews FFS, no shot, rising cap or not.

Matthews does not need Marner to be successful, he's proven that in the past playing with Willy or Domi etc.

Marner may not need Matthews to be successful he's proven that for what 15 regular season games or so? Show that to me in the playoffs Mitchell and then perhaps we can have a conversation about if you are worth more than what Willy makes or what AM gets paid or not.

This is why playing MM and AM together is stupid. Keep them on seperate lines and spread out the threats, making it harder for teams to defend against them.

Until then keep doing what you have done the past 15 or so games, carry that into the playoffs and LEAD this (frank)ing team to a deep playoff run. YES LEAD you have the A on your sweater for a reason.

Same for Matthews, JT and Reilly who have an letter on their jersey - LEAD THIS (frank)ING TEAM TO A DEEP RUN, NOW.

The only one of these guys who has actually done that is JT who as someone else pointed out scored the goal to get them to the 2nd round. Once.

Side note - Nylander's statement that someone posted on here a few days ago speaks volumes on how much he wants to win here. Has anyone every heard Marner or even Matthews say something that raw about that topic? I have never seen or heard anything like that and it's a shame because reading it as a Leafs fan, how could you not say "(frank) yes Willy, we are with you"?
- Cush29

Umm he's proven it for more than 15 games.....there really is no "may not" about it.

I dont understand why we cant like and appreciate the trio of Marner, Nylander and Matthews. Why the hate? They are the most valuable puzzle pieces on the team. We need all three to play to their potential in hopes of, you know, winning.
Why single a guy out on the team you cheer for and poop on him no matter what? Makes no sense to me.

I dont remember Leaf fans doing this with Gilmour, Andreychuk and Clark. We just wanted them to WIN>
- Snot Dillingham

Salary Cap.....this is why.

It sucks big time but it's the reality.

This is a very good point, and something I didn't even realize till you mentioned it. It's not only dreading what his future contract might be, it's a lot of resentment over the value of his last. His contract, and to a bigger extent, JTs, really did hurt the teams ability to build a winner.
- Whipper

Dubas gave him that contract.
Both AM, MM's, JT's and COVID hurt the teams chances of building a winner.
Both Marner and AM were overpaid on their 2nd contracts

Umm he's proven it for more than 15 games.....there really is no "may not" about it.
- Fakepartofme

I was talking about this season specifically (which is why I said regular season games so far) & not saying he hasn't been effective without Matthews in the past. That being said you have to admit this past 15 games or so (I don't know the exact #) when Matthews has been out Marner's game has been better without AM than it's ever been (at least to me).

Marner has seemed dominant in a lot of games where Matthews was out this year and that's a good thing and I was saying I hope he can continue to do it at the level he has this year.

I dont understand why we cant like and appreciate the trio of Marner, Nylander and Matthews. Why the hate? They are the most valuable puzzle pieces on the team. We need all three to play to their potential in hopes of, you know, winning.
Why single a guy out on the team you cheer for and poop on him no matter what? Makes no sense to me.

I dont remember Leaf fans doing this with Gilmour, Andreychuk and Clark. We just wanted them to WIN>
- Snot Dillingham

I was at the game last night, sitting in really good seats (not my usual ones).

I've never, ever seen a player with better edging and footwork than Marner. It's redonkalabonk.

I dont understand why we cant like and appreciate the trio of Marner, Nylander and Matthews. Why the hate? They are the most valuable puzzle pieces on the team. We need all three to play to their potential in hopes of, you know, winning.
Why single a guy out on the team you cheer for and poop on him no matter what? Makes no sense to me.

I dont remember Leaf fans doing this with Gilmour, Andreychuk and Clark. We just wanted them to WIN>
- Snot Dillingham

a team that didnt have huge expectations going on 2 conference finals runs vs a team that has shat the bed 8 times in a row

but its a totally different world. with a cap and all that

The pedantics on this discussion are really annoying. (frank) all of these female genitalias. Look at MacKinnon, Crosby, OV, McDavid, Kucherov, Draisaitl etc. Who cares who did slightly better on a team where all of the 45 million dollars circles various drains of ineptitude in the playoffs? I just want one elite performance by the elite paid players once. Even if they lose. I want to see them do it.

8 goals and 15 points in a 14 game playoff season. That type of thing. I don't even need something stupid like MacKinnon getting 25 in 15.
- AdamFrench

How about 14pts in 11 games? (3gs, 11a's)
For scoring it's at a 0.27 gpg pace and which was down from his 0.36 gpg he did during the reg season that year.

But I do agree, AM and Matthews need to dominate a series or playoffs - cup or not, they need to dominate.
Hopefully this year.

That is absolutely not true. So many whine about him.

Ah so you dont care about the series where he helped the leafs get to the second and then was the main reason they won their only game in the 2nd round? Convenient.
IF you feel the above about Marner, then why dont you feel the above about Matthews? Kinda the same results.
- Fakepartofme

Admittedly, I was exaggerating a little. But I think most people that hate Mitch would be happy to have him at a reasonable cap hit.

And yes, I 1000% do not care about the Tampa series. That series was a playoff oddity. The vast majority of series aren't barnburners like that, where defense is an afterthought. Most series are low scoring, tight checking affairs where players don't have time and space, which is exactly how Marner has his biggest impact. That's why his numbers drop off significantly in games 5-7 vs the other players in our core, those games actually mean something.

I'm not saying he's not capable of doing it, he is playing with a different level of grit this year, (he actually threw a half a$$ed check last night, and nice glove on punch to the face thrown lol), but I've very hesitant to give him over $13M x 8 if he can't produce this year. I'm cautiously optimistic, I would LOVE to be wrong.

Hard to ignore the same BS posted over and over and over, I could argue it would have been easier for you to simply ignore the one post by Dozzer that irked you.

Please don't assume what I do or don't agree with, Dozzer's comment was his comment so if you take issue with it you can deal with Dozzer on it.

Yes I think Marner needs to be better in the playoffs (as I do with a bunch of other Leafs) but you assuming I am laying the bulk of the blame at Marner's feet is wrong.

It's like me saying you are simply an avid Marner defender, seeking to push blame to anyone else but him by constantly defending Marner and claiming it's the system or lack of the right players around Marner that is the problem and not Marner.

It would be easy to do because you have said it repeatedly and used Patrick Kane as an example more than once (btw comparing Kane to Marner is not apples to apples, Kane has always been a much bigger SCORING threat than Marner).

That being said you close off most if not all of your posts on this topic saying you see fault in Marner as well as others so it would be wrong (yet easy to say) of me to say you are simply a "Marner-wife".

And yes, I predominately blame one user for constantly saying things that are over the top just to re-ignite this stupid debate that happens here far too often. When that user was not here this didn't happen, that says it all.

I like both players, I like pretty much all the Leaf players and feel no need to rank them in who I love the most to the least.

I just wish this place had an ignore button so you could mute and not see posts from specific posters TBH.
- Cush29

I think everyone would like a mute button. They'd probably also like AI to summarize half of our posts.

With regards to Kane - I do not dispute that he's a bigger scoring threat than Marner. He scored over 40 twice and has a beautiful shot. Marner has a decent shot, but he's beating you more with deception than with a straight-on shot. But I also contend that a signficant portion of Kane's ability to score came from playing on a team that had the size and support to give Kane more room and opportunity.

An example is that you watch Chicago games in 2015 - despite him being 5'10 and 180lbs, no one tried to bully or intimidate Kane. His team had his back and everyone knew it. With Keefe's Leafs a select few over the years have stood up for their teammates, but it wasn't a team effort. You'd see guys take Marner into the wall, butt end him in the ribs, elbow him - or even after the whistle take him to the boards and rough him up a little - while several teammates just skated away to the bench. You never see that from a winning team. You certainly never saw it from the Blackhawks winning teams.

So the contention I have always been trying to make isn't that Marner is as good of a scoring threat as Patrick Kane, but that with a team having his back the same way Chicago had Kane's back, Marner would enjoy greater playoff success when things are tough.

Salary Cap.....this is why.

It sucks big time but it's the reality.
- Cush29

Fair point, but shouldnt the anger then be pointed at or shared with Bettman, Owners and management?

NHL players are eating at Arbys while NBA players are eating at Jacobs & Co.
I cant blame a guy for trying to get his bag.

I was at the game last night, sitting in really good seats (not my usual ones).

I've never, ever seen a player with better edging and footwork than Marner. It's redonkalabonk.
- Atomic Wedgie

Theres some positivity! Marner is a fantastic talent and we need to keep him.

But dont try telling me he had better edging and footwork than David Steckel, who I saw live while sitting in good seats.

I was talking about this season specifically (which is why I said regular season games so far) & not saying he hasn't been effective without Matthews in the past. That being said you have to admit this past 15 games or so (I don't know the exact #) when Matthews has been out Marner's game has been better without AM than it's ever been (at least to me).

Marner has seemed dominant in a lot of games where Matthews was out this year and that's a good thing and I was saying I hope he can continue to do it at the level he has this year.
- Cush29

Ah ok my bad.
I agree with your statement, he has been much better. I find he's better overall when he's not forced to try and always feed the puck to matthews. For me, under keefes system that seemed to always be the case, only find matthews. Which he's been good at no doubt (it has benefitted him and matthews) but it can create some limitations - I know that sounds weird being thats matthews is a 60 goal scorer.
Or maybe he just plays harder without matthews....or maybe Berube has been good for marner?
I dunno.....for me it will be about how they look in the playoffs.

Admittedly, I was exaggerating a little. But I think most people that hate Mitch would be happy to have him at a reasonable cap hit.

And yes, I 1000% do not care about the Tampa series. That series was a playoff oddity. The vast majority of series aren't barnburners like that, where defense is an afterthought. Most series are low scoring, tight checking affairs where players don't have time and space, which is exactly how Marner has his biggest impact. That's why his numbers drop off significantly in games 5-7 vs the other players in our core, those games actually mean something.

I'm not saying he's not capable of doing it, he is playing with a different level of grit this year, (he actually threw a half a$$ed check last night, and nice glove on punch to the face thrown lol), but I've very hesitant to give him over $13M x 8 if he can't produce this year. I'm cautiously optimistic, I would LOVE to be wrong.
- Whipper

Completely agree....Im hoping its reasonable as well.

The cap has ruined the game a bit from a fans perspective.

But yes that tampa series was a playoff oddity.....because its the only one MM, Rielly and AM dominated and its the only one the leafs won.
Either way it cant be discounted, we've seem barnburners in the playoffs before (with other teams)

Fair point, but shouldnt the anger then be pointed at or shared with Bettman, Owners and management?

NHL players are eating at Arbys while NBA players are eating at Jacobs & Co.
I cant blame a guy for trying to get his bag.
- Snot Dillingham

Perhaps but I have a hard time feeling sorry for any pro athlete making millions, be it 2, 10, or 30 & you can't compare the sports look at the differences in revenue generation between the pro leagues - NHL is the red headed step child!

If you want to have summers off be a teacher not a plumber, if you want to make huge cake being a pro athlete be a baseball, football or basketball player not an NHL player? lol

i have no idea..couldnt have been that memorable
- senstroll

Ah yes, the goal post have moved.

Ah ok my bad.
I agree with your statement, he has been much better. I find he's better overall when he's not forced to try and always feed the puck to matthews. For me, under keefes system that seemed to always be the case, only find matthews. Which he's been good at no doubt (it has benefitted him and matthews) but it can create some limitations - I know that sounds weird being thats matthews is a 60 goal scorer.
Or maybe he just plays harder without matthews....or maybe Berube has been good for marner?
I dunno.....for me it will be about how they look in the playoffs.
- Fakepartofme

Oh that's a great point about perhaps his mentality being totally different without Matthews and/or a new coach and new marching orders. I feel like the way he was in AM's absence is just even more validation that the Leafs are better with AM and MM on seperate lines. Sure perhaps throw them together occasionally or on the pp but Marner can set up others, Matthews can be set up by others and it spreads out the threats making it harder to defend against the Leafs IMO.

a team that didnt have huge expectations going on 2 conference finals runs vs a team that has shat the bed 8 times in a row

but its a totally different world. with a cap and all that
- senstroll

Id say the expectations were fairly high if I remember correctly (The Passion Returns)

There were a fair amount of quality vets brought in that almost got that team over the top.

I will not disagree on this current team poopting the bed. I did not realize it had been 8 years in a row now until you posted it.
Thats a kick in the balls and sucks like this Stupid Tuna Sandwich. Screw this, Im going to get a Dagwood.

I think everyone would like a mute button. They'd probably also like AI to summarize half of our posts.

With regards to Kane - I do not dispute that he's a bigger scoring threat than Marner. He scored over 40 twice and has a beautiful shot. Marner has a decent shot, but he's beating you more with deception than with a straight-on shot. But I also contend that a signficant portion of Kane's ability to score came from playing on a team that had the size and support to give Kane more room and opportunity.

An example is that you watch Chicago games in 2015 - despite him being 5'10 and 180lbs, no one tried to bully or intimidate Kane. His team had his back and everyone knew it. With Keefe's Leafs a select few over the years have stood up for their teammates, but it wasn't a team effort. You'd see guys take Marner into the wall, butt end him in the ribs, elbow him - or even after the whistle take him to the boards and rough him up a little - while several teammates just skated away to the bench. You never see that from a winning team. You certainly never saw it from the Blackhawks winning teams.

So the contention I have always been trying to make isn't that Marner is as good of a scoring threat as Patrick Kane, but that with a team having his back the same way Chicago had Kane's back, Marner would enjoy greater playoff success when things are tough.
- Monkeypunk

I get what your saying but I don't necessairly agree that had Leaf players gone after opposition players for rubbing Marner into the glass or the odd shot to the ribs after the play he woudl have changed his game much. Maybe I'm wrong but then again so many of the Leafs in the past didn't even stand up for themselves so to expect them to do so for other guys was probably unrealistic. The team wasn't built to do so and I guess that's your point - are they now? Let's hope so. I don't want any of the Leafs taking extra punishment without pushing back but these guys have to stand up for themselves somewhat too and last night Marner showed he can which is encouraging.

They need the pack mentality that we have seen from the Bruins or Tampa when someone takes a cheap shot (or a legal hit as the case may be) the guy who got it pushes back more often than not but the entire team goes ape poop and jumps in.

The Leafs need more of that come playoff time for sure - they might have the mix now to do it - Knies showed some of that last playoffs and I loved it.

Theres some positivity! Marner is a fantastic talent and we need to keep him.

But dont try telling me he had better edging and footwork than David Steckel, who I saw live while sitting in good seats.
- Snot Dillingham

One thing is for certain: Leafs fans lead the league in inserting random names of forgettable ex-Leafs into every conversation.

Oddly enough, I used to use David Sacco a lot, but now it doesn't work as well.