A series can be clinched one way or the other. Winning game 4 against Florida in round two is still a series clinching game.
- Monkeypunk

umm wut?

umm wut?
- senstroll

When the Leafs are on the brink of elimination and they win a game, that is considered a game winning goal.

When the Leafs are on the brink of elimination and they win a game, that is considered a game winning goal.
- Whipper

game winning goal, but not clinching.

Marner has a gwg in game 6 of 2018 and game 1 of 2019
so only 1 gwg in a game they could be eliminated

actually its 3, missed the one against Florida

In all honesty, I don't think he wants to play anywhere else, and I don't believe he will play anywhere else. What remains to be seen, is just how painful his next cap hit is going to be.
- Whipper

13.25 x 8

anyone know where he parks his vehicle?
- dmnted

Carjackers are way ahead of you.

If he walks at all after saying no, he’ll be up in the public enemy top 10 especially after an early playoff exit. At the end of the day, he’ll have to decide how much the extra money means to him.
- Canada Cup

Tavares every game in Long Island?

game winning goal, but not clinching.

Marner has a gwg in game 6 of 2018 and game 1 of 2019
so only 1 gwg in a game they could be eliminated
- senstroll

It's a great example of data presentation to tell a story and how much it can be manipulated.

Anyone scoring a goal to win game 5 when it prevents the Leafs from being swept in 4 or scoring a GWG in Game 5 to prevent the Leafs losing a series 4 games to 1 isn't anything like a series clinching goal.

And this current leaf roster has ONE player with a series clinching goal.

The one player some folks think the Leafs should just get rid of and keep changing the supporting cast around the other parts of the core that have ZERO series clinching goals between them. That will for sure make things better.......


it's almost like saying you can't trade the guy who has the most points in the regular season and playoffs even though the production of that player (AND THE OTHER CORE PLAYERS) has been horrific in game 7's or for some of them in games 5-7 which was shown earlier today.

It's not all on Marner, but he's the one up for a contract now so I hope he delivers in games 5, 6 and 7's this year and the Leafs go deep.

If not I hope they make some big moves and allowing Marner to walk (trade for the rights to negotiate with him) is one that warrants consideration at least.

Tavares every game in Long Island?
- AdamFrench

Difference is, he's not from Long Island. And he only gets booed ON Long Island. Marner would face it in half the arenas in the league. It would suck to be hated in the city of your birth and likely where you live in the offseason.

13.25 x 8
- Rare_Jewel

This wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. But that doesn't leave much for Knies/JT or any supporting cast.

game winning goal, but not clinching.

Marner has a gwg in game 6 of 2018 and game 1 of 2019
so only 1 gwg in a game they could be eliminated
- senstroll

It's a potentially series clinching game. Game 4 against Columbus in 2020 that we won was a potentially series clinching game. Meaning the players who stepped up in that game stepped up when it mattered. Tavares and Nylander each with a goal and two assists; Marner and Matthews each with 3 assists. In that game they stepped up. In game 5 against Columbus of that year - also a series clinching game, the 4 of them combined had no points - JT, Marner and Matthews were each -1 and Nylander was -3.

If people are going to arbitrarily pick games 5, 6 and 7, I'd rather take a look at the specifics of the importance of the game. I still believe that every playoff game is important but people who want to be mad at Marner have decided that games where he's good aren't important and the other team clearly wasn't trying.

Here's a more detailed breakdown (BTW, note the numbers I cited earlier had an incorrect reference, so Marner has only 2 points in 5 game 7s and is -5 and Nylander has 2G-2A in 5 games):

Matthews

Game 1: 9 GP 2 G - 4 A - 6 Pts; +0
Game 2: 9 GP 3 G - 10 A - 13 Pts; +3
Game 3: 9 GP 4 G - 3 A - 7 Pts; +1
Game 4: 9 GP 6 G - 3 A - 9 Pts; -1
Game 5: 8 GP 4 G - 2 A - 6 Pts; +2
Game 6: 6 GP 4 G - 0 A - 4 Pts; -1
Game 7: 5 GP 0 G - 3 A - 3 Pts; -2

Marner

Game 1: 9 GP 4 G - 5 A - 9 Pts; +4
Game 2: 9 GP 4 G - 7 A - 11 Pts; +4
Game 3: 9 GP 0 G - 9 A - 9 Pts; +4
Game 4: 9 GP 2 G - 10 A - 12 Pts; -1
Game 5: 9 GP 0 G - 5 A - 5 Pts; +1
Game 6: 7 GP 1 G - 1 A - 2 Pts; +3
Game 7: 5 GP 0 G - 2 A - 2 Pts; -5

Nylander

Game 1: 8 GP 3 G - 0 A - 3 Pts; -4
Game 2: 8 GP 2 G - 4 A - 6 Pts; +0
Game 3: 8 GP 3 G - 3 A - 6 Pts; +0
Game 4: 9 GP 5 G - 6 A - 11 Pts; +3
Game 5: 9 GP 2 G - 5 A - 7 Pts; -1
Game 6: 7 GP 3 G - 3 A - 6 Pts; +6
Game 7: 5 GP 2 G - 2 A - 4 Pts; -3

Tavares

Game 1: 7 GP 1 G - 3 A - 4 Pts; -3
Game 2: 6 GP 5 G - 0 A - 5 Pts; +1
Game 3: 6 GP 0 G - 1 A - 1 Pts; -5
Game 4: 6 GP 1 G - 3 A - 4 Pts; -5
Game 5: 6 GP 1 G - 5 A - 6 Pts; +2
Game 6: 4 GP 3 G - 0 A - 3 Pts; +3
Game 7: 3 GP 1 G - 0 A - 1 Pts; -2

It's a great example of data presentation to tell a story and how much it can be manipulated.

Anyone scoring a goal to win game 5 when it prevents the Leafs from being swept in 4 or scoring a GWG in Game 5 to prevent the Leafs losing a series 4 games to 1 isn't anything like a series clinching goal.

And this current leaf roster has ONE player with a series clinching goal.

The one player some folks think the Leafs should just get rid of and keep changing the supporting cast around the other parts of the core that have ZERO series clinching goals between them. That will for sure make things better.......


it's almost like saying you can't trade the guy who has the most points in the regular season and playoffs even though the production of that player (AND THE OTHER CORE PLAYERS) has been horrific in game 7's or for some of them in games 5-7 which was shown earlier today.

It's not all on Marner, but he's the one up for a contract now so I hope he delivers in games 5, 6 and 7's this year and the Leafs go deep.

If not I hope they make some big moves and allowing Marner to walk (trade for the rights to negotiate with him) is one that warrants consideration at least.
- Cush29

It's a great example of data presentation to tell a story and how much it can be manipulated.

Anyone scoring a goal to win game 5 when it prevents the Leafs from being swept in 4 or scoring a GWG in Game 5 to prevent the Leafs losing a series 4 games to 1 isn't anything like a series clinching goal.

And this current leaf roster has ONE player with a series clinching goal.

The one player some folks think the Leafs should just get rid of and keep changing the supporting cast around the other parts of the core that have ZERO series clinching goals between them. That will for sure make things better.......


it's almost like saying you can't trade the guy who has the most points in the regular season and playoffs even though the production of that player (AND THE OTHER CORE PLAYERS) has been horrific in game 7's or for some of them in games 5-7 which was shown earlier today.

It's not all on Marner, but he's the one up for a contract now so I hope he delivers in games 5, 6 and 7's this year and the Leafs go deep.

If not I hope they make some big moves and allowing Marner to walk (trade for the rights to negotiate with him) is one that warrants consideration at least.
- Cush29

No it's a great example of taking a meaningless and arbitrary look at a set of 3 games in a series compared to looking at the importance of the specific game in a series. Using only games 5, 6 and 7 is manipulation. Playing in a game where your season can end or carry on is a better indicator of stepping up when it counts isn't it?

This wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. But that doesn't leave much for Knies/JT or any supporting cast.
- Whipper

Knies can get a bridge deal, Tavares can be shown the door.

So can Kampf and Jarnkrok.

If a "core" player needs to be traded, it's Rielly.

I still believe that every playoff game is important but people who want to be mad at Marner have decided that games where he's good aren't important and the other team clearly wasn't trying.
- Monkeypunk

Exactly this.

No it's a great example of taking a meaningless and arbitrary look at a set of 3 games in a series compared to looking at the importance of the specific game in a series. Using only games 5, 6 and 7 is manipulation. Playing in a game where your season can end or carry on is a better indicator of stepping up when it counts isn't it?
- Monkeypunk

its like 40% of his playoff games. not like its some tiny sample

its like 40% of his playoff games. not like its some tiny sample
- senstroll

So if you're going to play this stupid game...therefore... the other 60% of his playoff games is a bigger sample size and thus more accurate.

Knies can get a bridge deal, Tavares can be shown the door.

So can Kampf and Jarnkrok.

If a "core" player needs to be traded, it's Rielly.
- Rare_Jewel

Hopefully, they can get Knies signed to a reasonable bridge deal. But I'd rather have Marner for 12 vs 14 and be able to give JT 7 vs 5. This is a pretty uninspiring UFA class coming up, not sure how you replace JT.

Rielly is NEVER going anywhere.

Hopefully, they can get Knies signed to a reasonable bridge deal. But I'd rather have Marner for 12 vs 14 and be able to give JT 7 vs 5. This is a pretty uninspiring UFA class coming up, not sure how you replace JT.

Rielly is NEVER going anywhere.
- Whipper

I'd rather have Marner, Matthews and Nylander at 900K. But it's not happening.

If ANYBODY needs to STFU and take a discount, it's Tavares.

He was given absolutely EVERYTHING when he came to Toronto and delivered NOTHING.

Rielly, is no different than any other player who got traded with a NMC in the past. He still has value in the correct situation. He might be willing to go to Vancouver. You might have to take back salary to make it work but it's nothing that hasn't been figured out before.

It's either that or you clear some space to bring in another RHD (maybe Ekblad) and hope he benefits from having a solid RHD beside him like he did with Schenn, which again, the Leafs were too stupid to acquire because they seem to hope Hakanpaa will be able to play on a destroyed knee.

its like 40% of his playoff games. not like its some tiny sample
- senstroll

Sure, but if you look at games 1-4:

Marner: 36 GP 10 G - 31 A - 41 Pts; +11
Matthews: 36 GP 15 G - 20 A - 35 Pts; +3
Nylander: 33 GP 13 G - 13 A - 26 Pts; -1
Tavares: 25 GP 7 G - 7 A - 14 Pts; -12

I mean why do those stats not matter? If it was so easy and that's why Marner is collecting points then, then how come Tavares sucks and Nylander isn't better?

This is the problem with the argument for me.

Sure, but if you look at games 1-4:

Marner: 36 GP 10 G - 31 A - 41 Pts; +11
Matthews: 36 GP 15 G - 20 A - 35 Pts; +3
Nylander: 33 GP 13 G - 13 A - 26 Pts; -1
Tavares: 25 GP 7 G - 7 A - 14 Pts; -12

I mean why do those stats not matter? If it was so easy and that's why Marner is collecting points then, then how come Tavares sucks and Nylander isn't better?

This is the problem with the argument for me.
- Monkeypunk

im not sure how to explain that when fans watch playoff hockey, as series go on and are close, they expect the star and highest paid players to step up. elimination games etc..

Marner has exacerbated his own issue by having difficult contract negotiations which puts the fans on alert. if you want to go that route. then you have to deliver.

it doesnt have to be 100% rational. sports fandom is not.

im not sure how to explain that when fans watch playoff hockey, as series go on and are close, they expect the star and highest paid players to step up. elimination games etc..

Marner has exacerbated his own issue by having difficult contract negotiations which puts the fans on alert. if you want to go that route. then you have to deliver.

it doesnt have to be 100% rational. sports fandom is not.
- senstroll

And yet Cup clinching goals have been scored by such stars as Reilly Smith, Artturi Lehkonen, Ross Colton, Lars Eller, Patric Hörnqvist, Alec Martinez, Dave Bolland, Maxime Talbot, Travis Moen, Frantisek Kaberle, Ruslan Fedotenko and Mike Rupp.

If you watch movies or play video games, yes, the star player winning the Cup in game 7, triple OT feels the most dramatic but far too many times we've seen lesser known players be the actual difference makers in the biggest games.

The star players are the ones most likely to get you into that situation but no one player has won a Cup by himself. Connor McDavid has 117 playoff points in 74 games. He didn't win them game 7 last year even though without him they lose in 4 games. Does he suck now? No. Because Stanley Cup success in the NHL is a team metric. This isn't (frank)ing tennis.

im not sure how to explain that when fans watch playoff hockey, as series go on and are close, they expect the star and highest paid players to step up. elimination games etc..

Marner has exacerbated his own issue by having difficult contract negotiations which puts the fans on alert. if you want to go that route. then you have to deliver.

it doesnt have to be 100% rational. sports fandom is not.
- senstroll

Which is fine. It's basically just pointing out that all the hate directed at Marner is irrational and incorrect and unfair. The fact that it's an emotional reaction is its own thing, but it doesn't make it correct.

But why is no one piling on the most expensive player on the team who vanishes more for what he's supposed to do? The only reason his contract was never contentious is that they just gave him what he wanted when he asked.

Sure, but if you look at games 1-4:

Marner: 36 GP 10 G - 31 A - 41 Pts; +11
Matthews: 36 GP 15 G - 20 A - 35 Pts; +3
Nylander: 33 GP 13 G - 13 A - 26 Pts; -1
Tavares: 25 GP 7 G - 7 A - 14 Pts; -12

I mean why do those stats not matter? If it was so easy and that's why Marner is collecting points then, then how come Tavares sucks and Nylander isn't better?

This is the problem with the argument for me.
- Monkeypunk

Those stats 100% matter. The issue is, we've committed to Matthews and Nylander, and virtually nothing can be done about that. So, we can keep throwing money at the same 3 or 4 players, and somehow expect different results, or we can go in a radically different direction. I have my preference but who knows, might turn out worse.

Which is fine. It's basically just pointing out that all the hate directed at Marner is irrational and incorrect and unfair. The fact that it's an emotional reaction is its own thing, but it doesn't make it correct.

But why is no one piling on the most expensive player on the team who vanishes more for what he's supposed to do? The only reason his contract was never contentious is that they just gave him what he wanted when he asked.
- Monkeypunk

Matthews at times could lay claim to the best player in the League. I never really had any problem with his contracts. he could if he wanted, held out and asked for more. Also I think it says more about the player when the team signs him to what he asked for. he really doesnt have any comps. unicorn goal scorer. Ovy maybe?

MM he got a bit more than every comp he had. just bad look from day 1

Which is fine. It's basically just pointing out that all the hate directed at Marner is irrational and incorrect and unfair. The fact that it's an emotional reaction is its own thing, but it doesn't make it correct.

But why is no one piling on the most expensive player on the team who vanishes more for what he's supposed to do? The only reason his contract was never contentious is that they just gave him what he wanted when he asked.
- Monkeypunk