It's very simple. the comment by the Habs fan talked about a true comparison of viewership of Leafs games vs Habs games being the CBC national game showing Montreal, PLUS the RDS feed of Montreal, compared to the Leafs on the CBC national game.

That isn't a true comparison. If you want a true fair comparison, you'd have to take the viewership of a Leafs national feed game, plus a Leafs game on RDS, and compare THAT to a Habs game on CBC and on RDS.

Just like the CBC feed gets lets viewers when it's not Leafs, of course the RDS feed would get less viewers if it were a Leafs game. But they'd still get viewers, if that were the game showing on a Saturday night on RDS.
- prock

It all sounds pretty exotic. Why would you want to do that? Many times during the year, the people who have the RDS feed will also have the national CBC feed of the Leaf game.

OK I think I understand. In many areas of the country like Ottawa and Montreal you can get all three games on a Saturday night as part of your cable or satellite package. My guess there is not feed of the Montreal and Ottawa game in the Toronto area on Saturday night when the Leafs are playing. Is that correct?

OK I think I understand. In many areas of the country like Ottawa and Montreal you can get all three games on a Saturday night as part of your cable or satellite package. My guess there is not feed of the Montreal and Ottawa game in the Toronto area on Saturday night when the Leafs are playing. Is that correct?
- spatso

No. We get the RDS feed. Pretty much without exception, the Habs game is broadcasted in Toronto every Saturday, on the French speaking channel. So if you're trying to compare the Leafs vs Habs, and you take a Saturday night when the Leafs are not playing, and add up the 1M from CBC, plus the 800K from RDS, and say the Habs get 1.8M when they are the national feed on CBC, if you really wanted to compare, you'd have to take the 1.7M from the CBC feed with the Leafs, and pick a Saturday night when the Habs aren't playing, and they're showing the Leafs game on RDS, and add that in.

Basically, if there is no Leaf game on Saturday night, and they're showing the Habs game, I'll still watch it. Occasionally, if I've just got some friends over having beers, we'll watch the west coast game as well. So I would be counted in the 1M people watching the Habs game, when that really isn't my choice. Follow?

Except, how often does this happen. For a French speaking audience, I'm guessing their second choice would be the Sens.

No. We get the RDS feed. Pretty much without exception, the Habs game is broadcasted in Toronto every Saturday, on the French speaking channel. So if you're trying to compare the Leafs vs Habs, and you take a Saturday night when the Leafs are not playing, and add up the 1M from CBC, plus the 800K from RDS, and say the Habs get 1.8M when they are the national feed on CBC, if you really wanted to compare, you'd have to take the 1.7M from the CBC feed with the Leafs, and pick a Saturday night when the Habs aren't playing, and they're showing the Leafs game on RDS, and add that in.

Basically, if there is no Leaf game on Saturday night, and they're showing the Habs game, I'll still watch it. Occasionally, if I've just got some friends over having beers, we'll watch the west coast game as well. So I would be counted in the 1M people watching the Habs game, when that really isn't my choice. Follow?

Except, how often does this happen. For a French speaking audience, I'm guessing their second choice would be the Sens.
- prock

Ok I understand. I am not sure what this go towards proving.

Ok I understand. I am not sure what this go towards proving.
- spatso

Saying the Habs get a better draw than the Leafs because when you add the RDS feed and the CBC feed together (when the Leafs aren't playing, a Hab game is on the national feed), you get a slightly bigger number than when the Leafs are the national feed, is a completely flawed argument.

"Saying the Habs get a better draw than the Leafs because when you add the RDS feed and the CBC feed together (when the Leafs aren't playing, a Hab game is on the national feed), you get a slightly bigger number than when the Leafs are the national feed, is a completely flawed argument."

I think people may be talking at cross purposes. Nobody disputes that the Leafs are a great brand. What people are saying that although the brand is good the product has declined. The problem is the team is not very good and it is the broadcast problem. It is not about the fans.

I don't personally care too much. I'd be happier if they were winning more games.

But when idiots come on and try to start yapping "nah, the Habs get a bigger audience because yadda yadda yadda...", it would help if they knew what they're talking about.

I am sure you are sincere but you must acknowledge that there is a practical problem when the Leafs fail to compete for a playoff spot. We are only 4 weeks past Christmas and the Leafs are already out of the playoff run. There is little identification with other teams in Southern Ontario and it is the most populated area of the country by a large amount. It does not appear likely that things will be very different next year.

Regular season games are for fun. The big bucks are tied up in the playoffs and the Leafs are not just letting down the fans they are also letting down their partners (other teams) by their failing to be competitive and keep at least some level of interest in hockey during the spring.

Saying the Habs get a better draw than the Leafs because when you add the RDS feed and the CBC feed together (when the Leafs aren't playing, a Hab game is on the national feed), you get a slightly bigger number than when the Leafs are the national feed, is a completely flawed argument.
- prock

What is your source to make the affirmation that it is only slightly bigger?

1. We admitted we were powerless over the insanity of Leaf management and that it had made our lives very unhappy.

2. Came to believe that if we just stopped caring so much it would help us to regain some sanity.

3. Decided to turn our attention to other things in our lives that were important and need of our attention.

4. Made a searching and fearless inventory of all the times we felt we had been disappointed and betrayed.

5, Admitted to God and everyone who cares exactly how we had felt, what we had done and what we had failed to do as a result of my faithful support of the Leafs.

6. Acknowledged that no matter how hard we had hoped or how much we cared it had made no difference. Leaf management would still do what they wanted, when they wanted and the team would continue to play bad hockey.

7. Made a list of all the people who had been affected, offended or harmed as a result of our disappointment, anger and frustration from our misguided loyalty of the Leafs.

8. Made direct amends to everyone we had hurt or offended including our family, friends and employer for the excessive amounts of time and preoccupation that we had in worrying, planning and thinking about the ways in which we could improve the team.

9. We humbly asked forgiveness of those we had harmed, especially from Senator fans for our pretending that playoff victories of years ago somehow made up for all the anguish we have lived since then.

10. Continue to realize how misguided we have been. We recognize the exciting young team that Vancouver has become, we extend sympathy to the Oilers in terms of their present team but acknowledge them as a great sports town. We see that Calgary has real super stars and the potential to be the best Canadian team. And, we admit that we are jealous of Montreal who have real fans who go to their hockey games. Who actually cheer and sing and care even more passionately about their team then we do about ours.

11. Sought through reflection and study to improve our conscious contact with the rest of the world realizing that not everybody reads the sports first thing in the morning. Not everyone spends all their time thinking about the Leafs and hockey.

12. Having seen the light we decided to tell anybody who will listen that we have decided to get a life and move on a do something else that does not piss us off so much. Some of us are going to take up ball room dancing.
- spatso

yet you're still here day after day posting about the Leafs

yet you're still here day after day posting about the Leafs
- BlueBloodPat

It is true most of us have just given up on them. I am so angry with that Blowhard idiot I keep reading all the sports pages just waiting to hear him say "I made a mistake." How many times have we been promised that they would build through the draft. First press conference of a new GM, "we will draft for the future and we will build around youth and speed." Am I the only one that feels betrayed by that band of liars?

It is true most of us have just given up on them. I am so angry with that Blowhard idiot I keep reading all the sports pages just waiting to hear him say "I made a mistake." How many times have we been promised that they would build through the draft. First press conference of a new GM, "we will draft for the future and we will build around youth and speed." Am I the only one that feels betrayed by that band of liars?
- spatso

i think burke might have actually believed it himself when he said it. But thought he did so well rejigging the defence, he was only 1 skill player away from the playoffs.... throw in the signings of gustavson, hansen and bozak he thought he had his young players. Pat himself on the back..job well done.

like I mentioned already he severely overrated his team and signings

i think burke might have actually believed it himself when he said it. But thought he did so well rejigging the defence, he was only 1 skill player away from the playoffs.... throw in the signings of gustavson, hansen and bozak he thought he had his young players. Pat himself on the back..job well done.

like I mentioned already he severely overrated his team and signings
- senstroll

I agree that may have been his thinking but, it does not make right his severe error in judgement.

You are not going to make any difference in the way he sees the leafs. They can do no wrong in his eyes. They have the highest rating on TV so they must be the best. Sometime ago he stopped measuring the leafs success by how many divisional championships, of conference championships or Stanley Cups they've won since expansion in 1967. He measures their success by sellouts, ratings, merchandise sales and any other off ice melodrama he can point to.
- Doppleganger

And you are ignoring the point about the Senators tank job, which is NOT ancient history, those picks could easily be playing right now.

How many more cups do the Sens have than the Leafs... 0.
Whose youth would you rather have? If you say the Sens, then YOU haven't been paying attention.

i think burke might have actually believed it himself when he said it. But thought he did so well rejigging the defence, he was only 1 skill player away from the playoffs.... throw in the signings of gustavson, hansen and bozak he thought he had his young players. Pat himself on the back..job well done.

like I mentioned already he severely overrated his team and signings
- senstroll

I would say that is a bang on assessment, except that he really only overrated 2 things...

His goaltending
His coach

He did not overrate Kessel. Kessel has shown that he can be a top line player on this team (even though I thought the trade was the stupidest thing imaginable).

Who the hell gives a crap about TV Ratings?

I just want to see them win.

And you are ignoring the point about the Senators tank job, which is NOT ancient history, those picks could easily be playing right now.

How many more cups do the Sens have than the Leafs... 0.
Whose youth would you rather have? If you say the Sens, then YOU haven't been paying attention.
- Aetherial

In my post I was responding fallaciously to another poster (to humour him), because he is delusional in his belief that the leafs are the better team in Ontario.


explain what you are talking about.
When was this alleged tank job?
What picks are you talking about?
What to you mean by youth?

Since Ottawa re-entered the league, they have exactly the same number of Stanley Cups. Ottawa has more Divisional & Conference Championships since they re-entered the NHL than the leafs have, and have also won the Presidents Trophy.

In my post I was responding fallaciously to another poster (to humour him), because he is delusional in his belief that the leafs are the better team in Ontario.


explain what you are talking about.
When was this alleged tank job?
What picks are you talking about?
What to you mean by youth?

Since Ottawa re-entered the league, they have exactly the same number of Stanley Cups. Ottawa has more Divisional & Conference Championships since they re-entered the NHL than the leafs have, and have also won the Presidents Trophy.
- Doppleganger

I think that this is an important point. I have no difficulty admitting that the more the Senators succeed the more frustrated I have become with the Leafs. So, I now look at the Senators as often providing a template for what the Leafs might follow in their approach to drafting and player development. I am equally impressed by the job done by Sabres management. For some Leaf fans, the acknowledgement that the Senators run a better player development operation than the Leafs is simply an unacceptable admission. I don't know why it is so, perhaps simple jealosy.

It is interesting to note that as frustrated as Leaf fans are with the Leafs a few still put an enormous amount of energy into hoping that the Senators fail. Somehow they think if the Senators falter the pain of this year's Leaf experience may not be as bad. For that reason, and that reason alone you get the almost manic raging of a very few Leaf fans insisting that this year's solid rebuild year for the Senators should not count because it really isn't happening. In sports the scoreboard is always the final judge who is better. Like every other Leaf fan I look at the standings in the morning and I know what I see. Whey people try to say it doesn't matter, you know they need to say it because it is so important to them. The Senators success this year only adds more fire to the deep wound that Leaf fans are experiencing already. We can embrace the pain and learn from it, or we can deny it and repeat the behavior the caused it in the first place. I say we learn from others and their experience, and that includes the Senators who are now in their third rebuild since they came into the league.

I think that this is an important point. I have no difficulty admitting that the more the Senators succeed the more frustrated I have become with the Leafs. So, I now look at the Senators as often providing a template for what the Leafs might follow in their approach to drafting and player development. I am equally impressed by the job done by Sabres management. For some Leaf fans, the acknowledgement that the Senators run a better player development operation than the Leafs is simply an unacceptable admission. I don't know why it is so, perhaps simple jealosy.

It is interesting to note that as frustrated as Leaf fans are with the Leafs a few still put an enormous amount of energy into hoping that the Senators fail. Somehow they think if the Senators falter the pain of this year's Leaf experience may not be as bad. For that reason, and that reason alone you get the almost manic raging of a very few Leaf fans insisting that this year's solid rebuild year for the Senators should not count because it really isn't happening. In sports the scoreboard is always the final judge who is better. Like every other Leaf fan I look at the standings in the morning and I know what I see. Whey people try to say it doesn't matter, you know they need to say it because it is so important to them. The Senators success this year only adds more fire to the deep wound that Leaf fans are experiencing already. We can embrace the pain and learn from it, or we can deny it and repeat the behavior the caused it in the first place. I say we learn from others and their experience, and that includes the Senators who are now in their third rebuild since they came into the league.
- spatso

excellent points.

However I must admit the leafs look a lot better with10 or so games to go than they did before the Olympics.

Just reduce the 12 steps to step 10.

Why don't you work on 12 steps of a Sens fan? One of the worst managed teams in the NHL for a LOT longer than the Leafs.
- prock

The leafs have not been to the Stanley Cup Finals since May 2nd 1967, the longest absence of ANY current NHL Franchise.

They have not even qualified for the playoffs since BEFORE the lockout, also the longest absence.

Ottawa is back in the playoffs, in the first year of a three year rebuild.

Burke has run the the leafs into the ground, he knew he needed a first line center, and brought in Connolly????

He knew his PK has been at the bottom of the NHL for four or five years, but stuck with the same coach until a couple of months ago. What took so long????

He tried to "wing it" with two back ups and still needs to acquire a proven NHL goaltender.

When Ottawa saw a need for a goaltender becasue of injury, they pulled the trigger and brought in Bishop for depth purposes.

It's laughable that you somehow see the circus that has been the leafs for the past few seasons as being better than the Senators, who are now "Miles and Miles ahead" of the leafs in practically every aspect of comparison.

The leafs have not been to the Stanley Cup Finals since May 2nd 1967, the longest absence of ANY current NHL Franchise.

They have not even qualified for the playoffs since BEFORE the lockout, also the longest absence.

Ottawa is back in the playoffs, in the first year of a three year rebuild.

Burke has run the the leafs into the ground, he knew he needed a first line center, and brought in Connolly????

He knew his PK has been at the bottom of the NHL for four or five years, but stuck with the same coach until a couple of months ago. What took so long????

He tried to "wing it" with two back ups and still needs to acquire a proven NHL goaltender.

When Ottawa saw a need for a goaltender becasue of injury, they pulled the trigger and brought in Bishop for depth purposes.

It's laughable that you somehow see the circus that has been the leafs for the past few seasons as being better than the Senators, who are now "Miles and Miles ahead" of the leafs in practically every aspect of comparison.
- Doppleganger

But you've already told us the Leafs prospects are better than the Sens prospects.

I would suggest that the AHL teams are a reflection on who may have a better group of prospects (at all positions) if you are comparing the two teams in Ontario.

But you've already told us the Leafs prospects are better than the Sens prospects.

I would suggest that the AHL teams are a reflection on who may have a better group of prospects (at all positions) if you are comparing the two teams in Ontario.
- prock

Keep on trolling.

Keep on trolling.


- Doppleganger

I love how you come up with a post like that on a long dead thread, then accuse others of trolling.