1. We admitted we were powerless over the insanity of Leaf management and that it had made our lives very unhappy.

2. Came to believe that if we just stopped caring so much it would help us to regain some sanity.

3. Decided to turn our attention to other things in our lives that were important and need of our attention.

4. Made a searching and fearless inventory of all the times we felt we had been disappointed and betrayed.

5, Admitted to God and everyone who cares exactly how we had felt, what we had done and what we had failed to do as a result of my faithful support of the Leafs.

6. Acknowledged that no matter how hard we had hoped or how much we cared it had made no difference. Leaf management would still do what they wanted, when they wanted and the team would continue to play bad hockey.

7. Made a list of all the people who had been affected, offended or harmed as a result of our disappointment, anger and frustration from our misguided loyalty of the Leafs.

8. Made direct amends to everyone we had hurt or offended including our family, friends and employer for the excessive amounts of time and preoccupation that we had in worrying, planning and thinking about the ways in which we could improve the team.

9. We humbly asked forgiveness of those we had harmed, especially from Senator fans for our pretending that playoff victories of years ago somehow made up for all the anguish we have lived since then.

10. Continue to realize how misguided we have been. We recognize the exciting young team that Vancouver has become, we extend sympathy to the Oilers in terms of their present team but acknowledge them as a great sports town. We see that Calgary has real super stars and the potential to be the best Canadian team. And, we admit that we are jealous of Montreal who have real fans who go to their hockey games. Who actually cheer and sing and care even more passionately about their team then we do about ours.

11. Sought through reflection and study to improve our conscious contact with the rest of the world realizing that not everybody reads the sports first thing in the morning. Not everyone spends all their time thinking about the Leafs and hockey.

12. Having seen the light we decided to tell anybody who will listen that we have decided to get a life and move on a do something else that does not piss us off so much. Some of us are going to take up ball room dancing.

You're a Sens fan. Why should we listen to a word you say?

Why don't you work on 12 steps of a Sens fan? One of the worst managed teams in the NHL for a LOT longer than the Leafs.

You're a Sens fan. Why should we listen to a word you say?

Why don't you work on 12 steps of a Sens fan? One of the worst managed teams in the NHL for a LOT longer than the Leafs.
- prock

I live in a village of about 1000 people 80km south east of Ottawa. When I first moved here everyone was a Leaf fan. Now just about everyone is a Sens fan, certainly all the kids are and I take a lot of teasing because of my loyalty to the Leafs. I am not hostile to the Senators and I have for years made that clear here and any other place when I talk about the Sens.

If you do not think the Senators have been better managed than the Leafs over the last ten years you have not done your homework.

Simply look at the regular season finish each year for the Senators and Leafs and compare the draft results to the original draft order if both teams had retained their picks. The Leafs for the most part had the opportunity to draft higher than the Senators 8 of those 10 years. Finally, look at the existing rosters and see how many of the players on each roster is the result of the player development of their respective systems.

I live in a village of about 1000 people 80km south east of Ottawa. When I first moved here everyone was a Leaf fan. Now just about everyone is a Sens fan, certainly all the kids are and I take a lot of teasing because of my loyalty to the Leafs. I am not hostile to the Senators and I have for years made that clear here and any other place when I talk about the Sens.

If you do not think the Senators have been better managed than the Leafs over the last ten years you have not done your homework.

Simply look at the regular season finish each year for the Senators and Leafs and compare the draft results to the original draft order if both teams had retained their picks. The Leafs for the most part had the opportunity to draft higher than the Senators 8 of those 10 years. Finally, look at the existing rosters and see how many of the players on each roster is the result of the player development of their respective systems.
- spatso

As far as fans going from the Leafs to the Sens, that's a natural occurrence over time, people moving to their new local team. It sure as hell wouldn't have been because of better finishes through the early part of this decade. Because the Leafs were finishing ahead of the Sens regularly. Both regular season and playoffs.

Oh, I HAVE done my homework. I've gone over this with you. You try find me ONE team in the history of the NHL that has had FIVE straight top 3 picks, 3 of them number 1 picks, and gone on NOT to win a cup.

It's not the result of good management. It's the result of the biggest tank in modern NHL history, and all of those draft proceeds got pissed away, with nothing to show.

Just change your team to the Senators. You're not a Leaf fan, you're just trying to pose as one to annoy people, and make yourself appear as some guy who has "seen the light".

As far as fans going from the Leafs to the Sens, that's a natural occurrence over time, people moving to their new local team. It sure as hell wouldn't have been because of better finishes through the early part of this decade. Because the Leafs were finishing ahead of the Sens regularly. Both regular season and playoffs.

Oh, I HAVE done my homework. I've gone over this with you. You try find me ONE team in the history of the NHL that has had FIVE straight top 3 picks, 3 of them number 1 picks, and gone on NOT to win a cup.

It's not the result of good management. It's the result of the biggest tank in modern NHL history, and all of those draft proceeds got pissed away, with nothing to show.

Just change your team to the Senators. You're not a Leaf fan, you're just trying to pose as one to annoy people, and make yourself appear as some guy who has "seen the light".
- prock

It is not my intention to annoy people, however , despite my best intentions, it does appear that I have succeeded in annoying you and that is unfortunate.

You seem to be hanging unto ancient history to try and justify the failings of Leaf management. I use the Senators as an example for comparison with the Leafs primarily because I live in a place where I am inundated with Senator information and constantly having people make the comparisons for me.

I could and would just as easily have used the Sabres for comparison purposes. Over the past 10 years the really great playoff rivalry in the Northeast has, in fact, been the Senators and Sabres. Both have had superb regular seasons only to be defeated by the other who went on to play in the finals and lose.

So, let's start again and look at Leaf management in comparison to the Sabres and how they have managed their player assets. Can I assume that you can agree the Sabres have done a much better job over the past ten years than the Leafs? In fact, can we not say the Leaf management of their player assets has been a disaster for the last 10 years?

You are not going to make any difference in the way he sees the leafs. They can do no wrong in his eyes. They have the highest rating on TV so they must be the best. Sometime ago he stopped measuring the leafs success by how many divisional championships, of conference championships or Stanley Cups they've won since expansion in 1967. He measures their success by sellouts, ratings, merchandise sales and any other off ice melodrama he can point to.

Here is your 1st step........one word.......landmine

I live in a village of about 1000 people 80km south east of Ottawa. When I first moved here everyone was a Leaf fan. Now just about everyone is a Sens fan, certainly all the kids are and I take a lot of teasing because of my loyalty to the Leafs. I am not hostile to the Senators and I have for years made that clear here and any other place when I talk about the Sens.


- spatso

thats a load of crap, I live in Ottawa and go to every Leafs/sens game, there are just as many leafs fans in the city as Sens. There may be some that jump on the sens bandwagon but they arnt real fans to begin with and you can have them.

I am a huge leafs fan and have been for 20 years. But I am fed up and have taken to watching MMA more than hockey the past 5 years (since the lockout) because the leafs have been terrible.

Brian Burke severely overrated his team this year, and has wasted our picks on Phil Kessel. Kessel is a fine player but not worth what they gave considering they are a bottom 3 team. We have nothing to play for and will be laughed at come draft time. But this is nothing new.

thats a load of crap, I live in Ottawa and go to every Leafs/sens game, there are just as many leafs fans in the city as Sens. There may be some that jump on the sens bandwagon but they arnt real fans to begin with and you can have them.

I am a huge leafs fan and have been for 20 years. But I am fed up and have taken to watching MMA more than hockey the past 5 years (since the lockout) because the leafs have been terrible.

Brian Burke severely overrated his team this year, and has wasted our picks on Phil Kessel. Kessel is a fine player but not worth what they gave considering they are a bottom 3 team. We have nothing to play for and will be laughed at come draft time. But this is nothing new.
- senstroll

If the Bruins draft a player (or trade up) in one of the top three spots, this will be the first nail Burke's coffin...........

If the Bruins draft a player (or trade up) in one of the top three spots, this will be the first nail Burke's coffin...........
- Doppleganger

then what, hire another GM ... who has a plan to rebuild, burke has set us back another 2 years...

just dump any and all players for draft picks, tank as bad as you can USE your draft picks...

2-3 years you will see reults, like the pens, chi, philly, Caps etc etc

thats a load of crap, I live in Ottawa and go to every Leafs/sens game, there are just as many leafs fans in the city as Sens. There may be some that jump on the sens bandwagon but they arnt real fans to begin with and you can have them.

I am a huge leafs fan and have been for 20 years. But I am fed up and have taken to watching MMA more than hockey the past 5 years (since the lockout) because the leafs have been terrible.

Brian Burke severely overrated his team this year, and has wasted our picks on Phil Kessel. Kessel is a fine player but not worth what they gave considering they are a bottom 3 team. We have nothing to play for and will be laughed at come draft time. But this is nothing new.
- senstroll

I am not sure what your saying is any different than what I am saying. I just watch other hockey teams rather than the Leafs. The fact that lots of Leaf fans attend Sens/leafs games being an indication that there are as may Leaf fans in Ottawa as Sens fans is silly. There are as many Montreal fans at Montreal games in Ottawa as Sens fans in the same way. but, these are really statistical and behavioral distortions coming out of the unique events. If you are in Ottawa during playoff time check the number of cars with Senator pennants versus those with Leaf pennants.

At the same time, even as far back as 7 or 8 years ago the number of Leaf fans in the Corel Center was much less during the playoffs compared to the regular season. Leaf fans are vocal but they are declining each year. Remember at one time all of Eastern Ontario was primarily Leaf fans. The last time the Leafs played in Ottawa the Senators did not sell out the game which only goes to indicate the overall decline in Leaf support in this area. The real test is to go into a school and ask the kids, they are all Senator fans.

It sounds to me that you are getting close to signing on with the Senators if they make a long playoff run this year. And, clearly it appears that you have taken the first step of twelve. Congratulations.

I am not sure what your saying is any different than what I am saying. I just watch other hockey teams rather than the Leafs. The fact that lots of Leaf fans attend Sens/leafs games being an indication that there are as may Leaf fans in Ottawa as Sens fans is silly. There are as many Montreal fans at Montreal games in Ottawa as Sens fans in the same way. but, these are really statistical and behavioral distortions coming out of the unique events. If you are in Ottawa during playoff time check the number of cars with Senator pennants versus those with Leaf pennants.

At the same time, even as far back as 7 or 8 years ago the number of Leaf fans in the Corel Center was much less during the playoffs compared to the regular season. Leaf fans are vocal but they are declining each year. Remember at one time all of Eastern Ontario was primarily Leaf fans. The last time the Leafs played in Ottawa the Senators did not sell out the game which only goes to indicate the overall decline in Leaf support in this area. The real test is to go into a school and ask the kids, they are all Senator fans.

It sounds to me that you are getting close to signing on with the Senators if they make a long playoff run this year.
- spatso

lol of course come playoff time there is more Sens flags in Ottawa than leafs...

if the leafs were in the playoffs this year and the sens, you will see just as many bandwagon jumping sens fans jump back to the leafs or come out of hiding....

and asking kids who were born in this city what fans they are ...of course a majority will be sens over time that will come into play.....

I am talking about right now, in the city on my sports teams and work, the numbers are pretty even, leafs/sens/habs...

and I am nowhere close ever to cheering for the sens, I will stop watching hockey first...which I have started to do, the UFC and MMA is getting 80% of my sports time

If the Bruins draft a player (or trade up) in one of the top three spots, this will be the first nail Burke's coffin...........
- Doppleganger

My hope is the nail will be the second. I thought the first nail was when he put himself of the team and started to talk about truculence. He somehow tried to convey the idea that if he could talk tough the team would play tough. It was a mistake to hire him.

lol of course come playoff time there is more Sens flags in Ottawa than leafs...

if the leafs were in the playoffs this year and the sens, you will see just as many bandwagon jumping sens fans jump back to the leafs or come out of hiding....

and asking kids who were born in this city what fans they are ...of course a majority will be sens over time that will come into play.....

I am talking about right now, in the city on my sports teams and work, the numbers are pretty even, leafs/sens/habs...

and I am nowhere close ever to cheering for the sens, I will stop watching hockey first...which I have started to do, the UFC and MMA is getting 80% of my sports time
- senstroll

I understand your pain. Because I live in an area with a small population I get to see and feel the change. Many of the people who were like me a Leaf fan have already gone over to the Senators. Some have stopped watching hockey. But all the young people are Sens fans and they love the team and that won't change. It would be my guess is that the Canadiens actually have a stronger following than the Leafs in the Ottawa valley because of the French factor. On the Quebec side there is huge support for the Sens in the Pontiac because of the English factor.

You are not going to make any difference in the way he sees the leafs. They can do no wrong in his eyes. They have the highest rating on TV so they must be the best. Sometime ago he stopped measuring the leafs success by how many divisional championships, of conference championships or Stanley Cups they've won since expansion in 1967. He measures their success by sellouts, ratings, merchandise sales and any other off ice melodrama he can point to.
- Doppleganger

Is that even true when you add RDS (French) ratings to CBC when the Habs game is shown nationwide?

My hope is the nail will be the second. I thought the first nail was when he put himself of the team and started to talk about truculence. He somehow tried to convey the idea that if he could talk tough the team would play tough. It was a mistake to hire him.
- spatso

They had no choice...............the National...............errrrrrrrrrr toronto centric sports media (HNIC TSN SportsNet The Score) hyped up Burke as the saviour, and basically whipped the toronto marketplace into a frenzy that MLSE had no choice but to provide the leaf fans with the messiah that the sports media told them was the man who could deliver them the Stanley Cup.

Is that even true when you add RDS (French) ratings to CBC when the Habs game is shown nationwide?
- hello_there

No I think HNIC likes to pretend that nobody in Quebec is watching hockey on a Saturday night or on any other night for that matter.

They had no choice...............the National...............errrrrrrrrrr toronto centric sports media (HNIC TSN SportsNet The Score) hyped up Burke as the saviour, and basically whipped the toronto marketplace into a frenzy that MLSE had no choice but to provide the leaf fans with the messiah that the sports media told them was the man who could deliver them the Stanley Cup.
- Doppleganger

That is what makes me so angry. The reason why they need to hire a heavyweight like Burke was so that they would not have to cater to the media or the people who wanted the instant fix. It makes me more angry that more people and especially the media did not stand up when talk about the Kessel deal started. This was not what was supposed to happen.

It is not my intention to annoy people, however , despite my best intentions, it does appear that I have succeeded in annoying you and that is unfortunate.

- spatso

You don't annoy me. It's entertaining watching your failing troll attempts, and stupid ideas. I don't know what would be worse, you trolling, or believing this stuff.

You seem to be hanging unto ancient history to try and justify the failings of Leaf management. I use the Senators as an example for comparison with the Leafs primarily because I live in a place where I am inundated with Senator information and constantly having people make the comparisons for me.

- spatso

the Sens crap management isn't ancient history. Murray has done SFA good for the franchise, minus trading Heatley. Which he was forced into.

I could and would just as easily have used the Sabres for comparison purposes. Over the past 10 years the really great playoff rivalry in the Northeast has, in fact, been the Senators and Sabres. Both have had superb regular seasons only to be defeated by the other who went on to play in the finals and lose.

- spatso

Probably because it's not a rivalry when the Leafs always pound the Sens in the playoffs every time they play.

Only a Sens fan would think the big playoff rivalry in the northeast is the Sens/Sabres.

So, let's start again and look at Leaf management in comparison to the Sabres and how they have managed their player assets. Can I assume that you can agree the Sabres have done a much better job over the past ten years than the Leafs? In fact, can we not say the Leaf management of their player assets has been a disaster for the last 10 years?
- spatso

Compare Leaf management to the Sabres? Okay. The Sabres have been much better. They've been average to a little above average. Significantly better than both the Sens and Leafs. Far better.

You are not going to make any difference in the way he sees the leafs. They can do no wrong in his eyes. They have the highest rating on TV so they must be the best. Sometime ago he stopped measuring the leafs success by how many divisional championships, of conference championships or Stanley Cups they've won since expansion in 1967. He measures their success by sellouts, ratings, merchandise sales and any other off ice melodrama he can point to.
- Doppleganger

Dumbest post I've seen in ages.

Is that even true when you add RDS (French) ratings to CBC when the Habs game is shown nationwide?
- hello_there

would it matter? It wouldn't be relevant.

If you want a truly relevant comparison done in that nature, you'd have to make the Leafs the national game on CBC as well as RDS, for that to be a true comparison. There are people that tune into the Saturday game in French on RDS, from new Brunswick, Nova Scotia, etc, that would do so if it weren't the Habs game on.

then what, hire another GM ... who has a plan to rebuild, burke has set us back another 2 years...

just dump any and all players for draft picks, tank as bad as you can USE your draft picks...

2-3 years you will see reults, like the pens, chi, philly, Caps etc etc
- senstroll

Or tank for 5 years like the Sens, and still get no results?

Dumbest post I've seen in ages.
- prock

Are you setting out on purpose to make all Leaf fans look thick?

would it matter? It wouldn't be relevant.

If you want a truly relevant comparison done in that nature, you'd have to make the Leafs the national game on CBC as well as RDS, for that to be a true comparison. There are people that tune into the Saturday game in French on RDS, from new Brunswick, Nova Scotia, etc, that would do so if it weren't the Habs game on.
- prock

Can somebody please help me and provide a translation or explanation in terms of what he is trying to say here.

Can somebody please help me and provide a translation or explanation in terms of what he is trying to say here.
- spatso

It's very simple. the comment by the Habs fan talked about a true comparison of viewership of Leafs games vs Habs games being the CBC national game showing Montreal, PLUS the RDS feed of Montreal, compared to the Leafs on the CBC national game.

That isn't a true comparison. If you want a true fair comparison, you'd have to take the viewership of a Leafs national feed game, plus a Leafs game on RDS, and compare THAT to a Habs game on CBC and on RDS.

Just like the CBC feed gets lets viewers when it's not Leafs, of course the RDS feed would get less viewers if it were a Leafs game. But they'd still get viewers, if that were the game showing on a Saturday night on RDS.