After 17 games it would appear that the Senator's rebuild is proceeding rather well. If anything Senator fans should be concerned that short term success will lead to a loss of a potential lottery pick.

The Leafs on the other hand are now 7 years into their rebuild and you have to wonder if they really have an overall strategy that will see them actually emerge as a serious competitor at some point.

The Oil are now in the third year of their rebuild and it is clear that they will be a serious team in the very near future.

Overall, I think that it would be wise for the Senators to move Spezza and some other pieces in order to better accelerate their rebuild. If the Leafs do not find a better means of being competitive they should seek a more traditional form of rebuild. The Oilers do not need to do anything other than continue in the direction they are headed. I am at a loss to try and figure out what the game plan is in Calgary.

Perhaps as some have suggested that the Leafs will improve when they get Riemer back and they have a regular starter who can play well at the NHL level. And, of course, part of the issue is the remarkable early season success of Seguin.

If some of you are inclined to think that this thread is redundant, you are probably right. I just got an IPad 2 yesterday and am trying out the screen keyboard to see if the input for text allows me to do the stuff quickly. It is actually pretty amazing. I am able to use the keyboard like a normal full key pad and the overall speed for data entry is very fast using a full five finger method for entry. I bought a case that allows me to place the pad at a slight angle similar to a conventional keypad and the spacing is actually okay even for my fat little fingers. Mrs. Spatso is a very fast typist so I had better give her a chance to key something and see if she can get a good result as well.

Yep they are not bad at all,this is a development year for our young blueline and its looked pretty good.Cowen gets stronger every game it wont be too long and he will be terrorising the NE .Rundblad has looked brilliant in some games and a little lost in others but he is fun defenseman to watch.EK is well on his way to being a star.

The forwards are a work in progress,next year should see a huge competition in camp with at least a couple of players making the cut.Still a few years out for this team to make a real dent, but the overall outlook is very promising indeed

Yep they are not bad at all,this is a development year for our young blueline and its looked pretty good.Cowen gets stronger every game it wont be too long and he will be terrorising the NE .Rundblad has looked brilliant in some games and a little lost in others but he is fun defenseman to watch.EK is well on his way to being a star.

The forwards are a work in progress,next year should see a huge competition in camp with at least a couple of players making the cut.Still a few years out for this team to make a real dent, but the overall outlook is very promising indeed
- top shelf 15

I am surprised they have played as well as they have. I think long term they would be better served if they just allowed themselves to drop down and take that lottery pick.

I am surprised they have played as well as they have. I think long term they would be better served if they just allowed themselves to drop down and take that lottery pick.
- spatso

Iam not too worried about that ottawa will bottom out soon enough,i can see vets like Kuba,carks,Gonchar etc moved at the deadline.Spezza might be gone if they can get what they need for him ,but i see michalek as being more expendable than him.

Iam not too worried about that ottawa will bottom out soon enough,i can see vets like Kuba,carks,Gonchar etc moved at the deadline.Spezza might be gone if they can get what they need for him ,but i see michalek as being more expendable than him.
- top shelf 15

As they go deeper into the season more and more people will understand the benefit from dealing Spezza. The return would be enormous. At the beginning of the season I thought that the deal with Columbus for Johanson and Voracek might happen. Now, i believe Senator fans should be wary of any deal in reverse. Perhaps columbus might be looking to move Nash for a #1 pick and an elite prospect. Ottawa should not do that deal. If the Senators want to play for a Stanley Cup 5 to 7 years out they need to operate from the understanding that their current leaders like Spezza and Michalek will be long gone. I think they can take a run at a playoff spot in 3 years.

In what world are the Leafs 7 years into a rebuild?

In what world are the Leafs 7 years into a rebuild?
- RogerRoeper

I think it would have been more accurate to say they are seven years having missed out on the playoffs.

I think it would have been more accurate to say they are seven years having missed out on the playoffs.
- spatso

Yeah, what a moronic statement and shows your negative Bias towards the leafs. They are maybe in year 3 (same as the oilers) of a rebuild, and are near the top of the league currently, So instead of correcting it you change it to missing the playoffs, now comparing rebuilds to missing the playoffs.

The sens are 17 games in and you think they are doing great with the rebuild? how about getting at least 1 lottery pick in your rebuild? thats what you need dont you? what good is another mid level pick and no playoffs when you have have a top 3 Elite prospect to rebuild properly?

the leafs never committed to a rebuild to be honest.... so thats why some/most say they were never in a rebuild

the leafs never committed to a rebuild to be honest.... so thats why some/most say they were never in a rebuild
- nightmare3020

Contrary to popular opinion it is not my purpose to knock the Leafs. In fact, I agree entirely with your comment that the Leafs have never really done a rebuild. They seem to be entirely content with continuing to hang on the edges and try and make the playoffs. Their avoidance of doing a full rebuild is what I have been critical about. But, my comments are normally reserved for MLSE and the overall management of the Leafs.

Yeah, what a moronic statement and shows your negative Bias towards the leafs. They are maybe in year 3 (same as the oilers) of a rebuild, and are near the top of the league currently, So instead of correcting it you change it to missing the playoffs, now comparing rebuilds to missing the playoffs.

The sens are 17 games in and you think they are doing great with the rebuild? how about getting at least 1 lottery pick in your rebuild? thats what you need dont you? what good is another mid level pick and no playoffs when you have have a top 3 Elite prospect to rebuild properly?
- senstroll

This is more difficult to respond to in light of the different paradigms being used by the Senators and the Leafs. I agree that the Senators need at least one and perhaps two lottery picks if it is their intention to reestablish themselves as an elite team.

Evaluating what the Leafs are doing is far more complex. It appears that they are satisfied to try and fight for a playoff spot. I am sure some people will argue that if they can get to the playoffs anything can happen. But, it is a very different path that most of the good young teams have followed.

Contrary to popular opinion it is not my purpose to knock the Leafs. In fact, I agree entirely with your comment that the Leafs have never really done a rebuild. They seem to be entirely content with continuing to hang on the edges and try and make the playoffs. Their avoidance of doing a full rebuild is what I have been critical about. But, my comments are normally reserved for MLSE and the overall management of the Leafs.
- spatso

what is your definition of a rebuild? I would say it has to do with 2 things mainly, finishing low in the standings and trading aging assets for Prospects/Picks

If you compare Ottawa with Toronto over the past 4 Drafts, there is not much of a Difference, Ottawa does not have a top 5 pick, Toronto has 2 playing for them if you count flipping Seguin for Kessel.

Toronto
2008 #5
2009 #7
2010 # Did not have one traded #2 for 2006 #5 pick
2011 #22

Ottawa
2008 #15
2009 #9
2010 #Did not have one traded #15 for 2009 #17 pick
2011 #6, #21, #24

Now that is giving Ottawa the benefit of the previous 3 years, but since they are only 17 games in, We can only use this Past draft and the upcoming one. Currently they sit 22nd in the league, are they overachieving? or playing where they should be?. Lets say they stay around where they are and end up with a 9th overall pick. So a rebuild is #6 and #9 overall, no lottery picks at all? Where is the Elite Talent going to come from?

Now IF they Trade Spezza and Alfy or at least one of them before seasons end I will applaud the rebuild, because they will get a great return and finish lower in the standing this season and next. If they dont, I dont see it as a much better rebuild than Toronto based on the picks.

We can address the trades of aged talent for picks and prospects to, Kaberle/Bauchmin out, Colborne/Gardiner in ..stuff like that, its probably close also

edit: had Ottawa at #7 in '09 ..changes to 9th

what is your definition of a rebuild? I would say it has to do with 2 things mainly, finishing low in the standings and trading aging assets for Prospects/Picks

If you compare Ottawa with Toronto over the past 4 Drafts, there is not much of a Difference, Ottawa does not have a top 5 pick, Toronto has 2 playing for them if you count flipping Seguin for Kessel.

Toronto
2008 #5
2009 #7
2010 # Did not have one traded #2 for 2006 #5 pick
2011 #22

Ottawa
2008 #15
2009 #7
2010 #Did not have one traded #15 for 2009 #17 pick
2011 #6, #21, #24

Now that is giving Ottawa the benefit of the previous 3 years, but since they are only 17 games in, We can only use this Past draft and the upcoming one. Currently they sit 22nd in the league, are they overachieving? or playing where they should be?. Lets say they stay around where they are and end up with a 9th overall pick. So a rebuild is #6 and #9 overall, no lottery picks at all? Where is the Elite Talent going to come from?

Now IF they Trade Spezza and Alfy or at least one of them before seasons end I will applaud the rebuild, because they will get a great return and finish lower in the standing this season and next. If they dont, I dont see it as a much better rebuild than Toronto based on the picks.

We can address the trades of aged talent for picks and prospects to, Kaberle/Bauchmin out, Colborne/Gardiner in ..stuff like that, its probably close also
- senstroll

Just to further your point:

Toronto:

Player - Age - Overall Pick #
Kessel - 24 - 5
Schenn - 22 - 5
Lupul - 28 - 7
Komisarek - 29 - 7
Kadri - 21 - 7
Phaneuf - 26 - 9
Colborne - 21 - 16
Gardiner - 21 - 17

Ottawa:

Player - Age - Overall Pick #
Spezza - 28 - 2
Zibanejad - 18 - 6
Michalek - 26 - 6
Lee - 24 - 9
Cowen - 20 - 9
Karlsson - 21 - 15
Rundblad - 21 - 17

So what is specifically so much better about Ottawa's rebuild? Just wondering here. As based on their play I could see them ending up at #5 overall and getting someone similar to Kessel, Lupul, Schenn, Komisarek, or Kadri.

Again, why do you consider the Leafs 'Rebuild' so bad?

Again, why do you consider the Leafs 'Rebuild' so bad?
- mfreedman

Honestly, I think Toronto gets a bum rap because of how long it took them to get the current management team in place and fully start rebuilding. Right now they have the pieces for a very strong core, but will just have to finish it off by developing these young guys and filling in any gaps that are identified over the next season or two.

The Sens rebuild has a rather visible starting point - we started dumping contracts and stocking up on picks - we set up our coaching staff to have a number of "teachers" in it - now it's just up to the prospects to develop.

In a few years we'll see if either team has done enough to contend...

Honestly, I think Toronto gets a bum rap because of how long it took them to get the current management team in place and fully start rebuilding. Right now they have the pieces for a very strong core, but will just have to finish it off by developing these young guys and filling in any gaps that are identified over the next season or two.

The Sens rebuild has a rather visible starting point - we started dumping contracts and stocking up on picks - we set up our coaching staff to have a number of "teachers" in it - now it's just up to the prospects to develop.

In a few years we'll see if either team has done enough to contend...
- Mr_Squeaks

Its a very similar situation.

The only difference really was that somehow Burke managed to pull in guys of similar caliber to what your prospects will be without having to wait.

Rundblad + Karlsson + Cowen - Gardiner + Schenn + Phaneuf

Michalek + Zibanejad - Lupul + Kessel

Not saying all these players are equal, just saying they are similar value wise

We missed out on 2 years of development, which may come back to haunt us, but is no where near as bad as spatso seems to think

If we had your coaching staff, you would see the improvement we have made, unfortunately we're stuck with Ron (frank)ing Wilson, so we may have to wait a year until we see what the team is really like.

Regardless, I like where both Ontario teams are heading

Its a very similar situation.

The only difference really was that somehow Burke managed to pull in guys of similar caliber to what your prospects will be without having to wait.

Rundblad + Karlsson + Cowen - Gardiner + Schenn + Phaneuf

Michalek + Zibanejad - Lupul + Kessel

Not saying all these players are equal, just saying they are similar value wise

We missed out on 2 years of development, which may come back to haunt us, but is no where near as bad as spatso seems to think

If we had your coaching staff, you would see the improvement we have made, unfortunately we're stuck with Ron (frank)ing Wilson, so we may have to wait a year until we see what the team is really like.

Regardless, I like where both Ontario teams are heading
- mfreedman

FML

that is all

Its a very similar situation.

The only difference really was that somehow Burke managed to pull in guys of similar caliber to what your prospects will be without having to wait.
- mfreedman

Absolutely agree - it's like the Kaberle deal last year. Everybody knew the guy was gone, but somehow Burke got some real value out of the deal. And when he shipped some "parts" off to Calgary and got a damned fine captain in return, he was building the core. The Kessel deal? Only time will tell, but I don't think too many fans in blue are anxious to send him back to Boston these days.

Yeah, this sounds like an out of character love fest for my team's main rival, but I'm really enjoying how this thread (and several others around here) are giving us the chance to speak objectively...

I think it would have been more accurate to say they are seven years having missed out on the playoffs.
- spatso

You can't include finishing 9th on the last day of the season for the first two years of the lockout under JFJ "Rebuilding Years".

Iam not too worried about that ottawa will bottom out soon enough,i can see vets like Kuba,carks,Gonchar etc moved at the deadline.Spezza might be gone if they can get what they need for him ,but i see michalek as being more expendable than him.
- top shelf 15

Ottawa "bottomed out" earlier this year when they fell to 30th overall in the NHL. They traded for Anderson, traded Fisher, Kovalev, Rutuu and Kelly..........stockpiled draft picks, and started to move forward from the "bottoming out."


Gonchar is over 35 yrs old and has another year @ $5.5 Million, so doubt very much anyone will be looking at him at this years deadline.

Spezza has a NO TRADE CLAUSE, and will not be asked to waive it, or will volunteer to waive it at the deadline.

Both Kuba ans Carkner are in their last year of their respective contracts and are the typical type of "rental " defensemen that are in high demand at the deadline by teams looking to shore upthier defense for the playoffs, and not upsetting their caps for the following season (as Gonchar would )

Why would Ottawa think of trading Michalek? He's young, has a reasonable contract, a player who is second overall in goals (currently) and is one of a few legitimate scoring threats Ottawa has????

Ottawa "bottomed out" earlier this year when they fell to 30th overall in the NHL. They traded for Anderson, traded Fisher, Kovalev, Rutuu and Kelly..........stockpiled draft picks, and started to move forward from the "bottoming out."


Gonchar is over 35 yrs old and has another year @ $5.5 Million, so doubt very much anyone will be looking at him at this years deadline.

Spezza has a NO TRADE CLAUSE, and will not be asked to waive it, or will volunteer to waive it at the deadline.

Both Kuba ans Carkner are in their last year of their respective contracts and are the typical type of "rental " defensemen that are in high demand at the deadline by teams looking to shore upthier defense for the playoffs, and not upsetting their caps for the following season (as Gonchar would )

Why would Ottawa think of trading Michalek? He's young, has a reasonable contract, a player who is second overall in goals (currently) and is one of a few legitimate scoring threats Ottawa has????
- Doppleganger

I dont really see any of Spezza or Michalek moved, but if one where more likely to go i would say michalek

I dont really see any of Spezza or Michalek moved, but if one where more likely to go i would say michalek
- top shelf 15

who would have seen Michalek having more value than heatley at this point... everyone thought the sens got hosed..and they did in the sense they could have gotten a lot more value back if he didnt demand a trade, and have power to say where he goes, but heatley sucks now and my keeper pool says so

who would have seen Michalek having more value than heatley at this point... everyone thought the sens got hosed..and they did in the sense they could have gotten a lot more value back if he didnt demand a trade, and have power to say where he goes, but heatley sucks now and my keeper pool says so
- senstroll

if heatley stays a 50 goal scorer its not even close. but playing the way he has for the last 18 months its pretty much a wash.

You can't include finishing 9th on the last day of the season for the first two years of the lockout under JFJ "Rebuilding Years".
- RogerRoeper

But honestly aren't GM's always in some form of a re-building mode, to some degree or another?

Isn't any trade made at the upcoming deadline that is not a "rental" type trade, a form of re-building if it is done to improve the teams fortune for the following season??
Same thing with signing a UFA. Why sign a UFA unless it's to improve the team.

For example, Burke traded Tomas Kaberle for Joe Colborne and Boston’s 2011 first-round draft pick, plus a conditional 2012 second-round draft pick. This was move to improve the leafs for the future. Just as trading Versteeg for Philadelphia's first and third round draft picks. He also traded to acquire Joffrey Lupul, defenceman Jake Gardiner and a conditional Ducks' fourth-round pick in the 2013 Entry Draft too.

Most people seem to think that a "re-build" is only a "re-build" if your team sucks for a number of seasons, and drafts in the top five of six slots at the Entry drafts, and then suck again for a few more years while a group of young players develop.

Another example of a re-build would be all the trades and UFA signings that Philadelphia made after finishing 30th overall at the end of the 2006/07 season. Three seasons later their in the Finals..........no sucking, drafting and developing for years and years.

Edmonton has finished 30th two seasons in a row now, and are currently sitting 29th overall. Is this the only true type of re-building?