Ah, so you can party hard if you put up first line numbers, but not second line numbers.

And this is why no one that matters cares what the 18-25 year old group thinks.
- Zombie

that is exactly it... and the 18-25 group have a point... which is why the older group have been content with 29-30th and saying "o yay we get another top 5 pick" as if that is an achievement to be proud of... its a silver lining on a troubling cloud... not something to cheer for

which is what i said and is fine... but when you dont reach what people expect from you whether its a fair expectation or not and it comes out that your partying hard then people want you gone... hence richards and carter
- DarcyTucker16

And that sums up why it's irrelavant what people want.

The vast majority of fans are idiots.

all of which played 2nd line minutes or lower and had more points than gags
- DarcyTucker16

Gagner 58th in avg. TOI and 39th in points

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9847QUhRbE&feature=player_embedded#!

WTF?? Not sure why the Nail link is not translating properly here...

http://www.youtube.com/wa...7rJQTp0Xk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/wa...6WN7VBoojE&feature=fvwrel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9847QUhRbE&feature=player_embedded#!

This was a good list
Fillpula
Couture
Deharnais
Oreilly
Statsny
Legwand/Fischer (1 has to be lower)
Grabo
Stepan
Henrique
Hudler
KEsler
J. Staal
Lecavlier



for the most part.
- ChrisMS

Fillpula = career year
Couture = good example
Deharnais = 1st line
Oreilly = breakout season
Statsny = down year
Legwand = inconsistent
Grabovski = inconsistent
Stepan = good example
Henrique = rookie (breakout)
Hudler = inconsistent
Kesler = AV gives him 1st pairing D-man minutes
J. Staal = HE ONLY GOT 3RD LINE MINUTES!!1!
Lecavlier = inconsistent

Next!

This was a good list
Fillpula
Couture
Deharnais
Oreilly
Statsny
Legwand/Fischer (1 has to be lower)
Grabo
Stepan
Henrique
Hudler
KEsler
J. Staal
Lecavlier



for the most part.
- ChrisMS

Desharnais played a minute and a half more per game than Gagner. He played the most pp of any Montreal forward. He played almost all of his time with Cole and Pac (Montreal's top 2 scorers). He's four inches shorter and 20 pounds lighter than Gagner. He had an easier zone start and qualcomp than Gagner. Gagner is three years younger and though he's never scored 60 points, he has 5 seasons of NHL calibre production to Desharnais' one.

There is literally no reason why Desharnais should be anointed as what Gagner should aspire to given the criticisms on Gagner's game.

Don't get me wrong: Desharnais is a great player, but I see no reason why he gets a pass on all the irrelevant BS you charge Gagner with.

Gagner 58th in avg. TOI and 39th in points
- abware

Most of those guys have Gagner beat by 2-4 points. And many are older and getting paid like 1C players.

Most of those guys have Gagner beat by 2-4 points. And many are older and getting paid like 1C players.
- robin_steele264

It will be interesting to see what Gagner actually gets paid this offseason...

This whole conversation is moronic.

There is no league wide standard to what a good, average, etc. 2nd line centre is. Why? Because good teams have 2-3 guys who could be top line centres on bad teams, and bad teams' top line centres might not crack the top six of the top teams.

All I know is, the suggestion that we should trade a 2009 10th overall pick and a 2007 6th overall pick for a 20th overall this year is flat out moronic, and no ChrisMS, a 3rd rounder from Philly doesn't make it even.

It will be interesting to see what Gagner actually gets paid this offseason...
- saskoil21

Chris Stewart money I'd bet. 1 year, 3 million or so.

you can't sweep his inconsistancy under the rug... the 8 point night is relevent. take that out and he falls way down the list. my point is that fans are content with an average 2nd center. question for everyone. what potential stanley cup contending teams would gagner be the number 2 center on?
- ChrisMS

Inconsistent, fine. He took a while putting it all together this season, but I will point out that his play outside of his offensive game was better than it's ever been at the start of the year. When he wasn't producing to start, he was more physical, good on faceoffs, stripping the puck and checking tighter. There were games where he put it all together and looked spectacular.

But the whole relevance of the 8 point game thing boils down to a tendency to erase his best game and not at all his rehabbing period at the beginning of the season. His slump to start the year had to do with his injury, and I wouldn't expect it to happen as much as I wouldn't expect an 8 point game to happen again. Take those two bits of data away, and his pretty much at career page in ppg.

(frank) clouts

Richard Cloutier ‏@rdcloutier

@JasonGregor I did come over and said hi. I didn't want to be all "Hi, I'm Richard, the annoying guy from Hockeybuzz".

This whole conversation is moronic.

There is no league wide standard to what a good, average, etc. 2nd line centre is. Why? Because good teams have 2-3 guys who could be top line centres on bad teams, and bad teams' top line centres might not crack the top six of the top teams.

All I know is, the suggestion that we should trade a 2009 10th overall pick and a 2007 6th overall pick for a 20th overall this year is flat out moronic, and no ChrisMS, a 3rd rounder from Philly doesn't make it even.
- Morris

I had to think about what you were talking about. The round and place they were drafted is completely immaterial. great/good players go in later rounds. then they prove what they are worth. i.e. you couldn't trade both those players and the 1st overall this year for kris letang, a third round pick. both those gentlemen have not lived up to what the expectations were/are. as they stand now... it would be "moronic" for a team to give up legitimate assets for them.

I had to think about what you were talking about. The round and place they were drafted is completely immaterial. great/good players go in later rounds. then they prove what they are worth. i.e. you couldn't trade both those players and the 1st overall this year for kris letang, a third round pick. both those gentlemen have not lived up to what the expectations were/are. as they stand now... it would be "moronic" for a team to give up legitimate assets for them.
- ChrisMS

For starters, only 50 guys from the 2009 have even played an NHL game yet. When you set the bar at a modest 40 games, that number drops to 25 and at 80 games drops to 12 players. Almost no one from the 2009 class has shown anything yet, and PRV certainly hasn't dropped in value vis a vis the rest of the class. To say that he has not lived up to expectations is either to damn the majority of the 2009 NHL draft class, or to talk out of one's ass.

2007 has shown enough now that we can get a good look at it. Gagner may not be the 6th best talent from that draft, but he's produced up with the best of them so far in terms of GP, points and PPG.

Rest assured, if NHL gms are so tight-fisted that the value for those two players is a 20th overall pick, they won't be traded.

For starters, only 50 guys from the 2009 have even played an NHL game yet. When you set the bar at a modest 40 games, that number drops to 25 and at 80 games drops to 12 players. Almost no one from the 2009 class has shown anything yet, and PRV certainly hasn't dropped in value vis a vis the rest of the class. To say that he has not lived up to expectations is either to damn the majority of the 2009 NHL draft class, or to talk out of one's ass.

2007 has shown enough now that we can get a good look at it. Gagner may not be the 6th best talent from that draft, but he's produced up with the best of them so far in terms of GP, points and PPG.

Rest assured, if NHL gms are so tight-fisted that the value for those two players is a 20th overall pick, they won't be traded.
- Morris

My point was never to say they should be traded, just pointing out how overvalued many on this sight see those assets. ps. "I will destry you!"

My point was never to say they should be traded, just pointing out how overvalued many on this sight see those assets. ps. "I will destry you!"
- ChrisMS

The idea of a consistent value for players gets posters in a lot of trouble. I think Gagner could fetch a 1st at a desperate time from a GM, as tons of mediocre players have at trade deadlines or the draft. Other times, you might not see the value for him be that high. My point was that they invested a lot of stock in these players (through drafting and grooming) and it seems like a crummy idea to let go of them for anything less than a solid return (just really bad asset management). Sometimes you have no choice because the stock of the player has fallen tremendously (M-A Pouliot for us, Espositio for you guys), but I don't think we've reached that point with either of those two.

I don't think you'll see Gagner moved unless they can get a GM to pay that kind of price, ipso facto he'll never get traded for less than a first (all things consistent e.g. that could change if he gets super injured or signs a massively overpayed contract).

as for your P.S., I forgot about my avatar and had to think about what you meant for a while

Via twitter:

Jagr to potentially test free agency instead of resigning with the Flyers.

Already the Jagr to Edmonton rumors are starting.


Here's a question. You get to pick one, Jagr or Smyth, who do you go for?

The thing about Gagner is there's a real feedback loop of people being reactionary on either side. Watching Gagner mature in his game, you see people post that Gagner has stopped improving and know that it's just not true. Then the reactionaries post that Gagner is going to breakout to a 60-70 point player and non-Edmonton fans know that that's probably not true. So they post that Gagner is going to be lucky to keep up a 45 point pace and the whole thing starts over again.

I know there's a lot of centres that started out pretty one-dimensional and stayed that way - decent 40-50 point players (see David Legwand). Then there are guys that started out one-dimensional and rounded out in many ways (see Stephen Weiss). Then there are guys that started out as 40 points scorers and now they highball the league (Sedins). I've got faith in Gags, but I imagine he'll end up somewhere around the first two.

listen to 1260 during the afternoon... people want him gone
- DarcyTucker16

Who cares what the callers think? Most of them are mouthbreathing knobs.

Via twitter:

Jagr to potentially test free agency instead of resigning with the Flyers.

Already the Jagr to Edmonton rumors are starting.


Here's a question. You get to pick one, Jagr or Smyth, who do you go for?
- jeremyn

Be a ballsy, ballsy PR move to dump Smyth again to bring in another aging vet for probably the same price and term.

as tons of mediocre players have at trade deadlines or the draft."

I've said here before that maybe, maybe you get a first for gagner at deadline, people comparing gagner to turris seems acurate. so more likely a 2nd and a b+ prospect. but yeah... at deadline maybe... draft, doubtful.

Via twitter:

Jagr to potentially test free agency instead of resigning with the Flyers.

Already the Jagr to Edmonton rumors are starting.


Here's a question. You get to pick one, Jagr or Smyth, who do you go for?
- jeremyn

Which ever one wants to play here for the best contract.

as tons of mediocre players have at trade deadlines or the draft."

I've said here before that maybe, maybe you get a first for gagner at deadline, people comparing gagner to turris seems acurate. so more likely a 2nd and a b+ prospect. but yeah... at deadline maybe... draft, doubtful.
- ChrisMS

Well, in my books a 2nd and a b+ prospect (especially if the prospect has recent 1st round pedigree - though that seems to count less for you) is worth the same as a 1st.

Teams don't usually trade at the draft unless it's for acquiring draft picks. You could see a team in the late first trading down to acquire a 2nd draft pick. Gagner + our 2nd might get a later 1st in that regard. But I agree, most of the players that get traded at the draft are even less notable than Gagner...

(frank) clouts

Richard Cloutier ‏@rdcloutier

@JasonGregor I did come over and said hi. I didn't want to be all "Hi, I'm Richard, the annoying guy from Hockeybuzz".
- Lahey

I bet Clouts had the biggest chub when he walked up and said hi.